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mamabear
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Posted by stickydust
Posted by mamabear
Posted by stickydust
Why don't I ever see any laws telling men what to do with their bodies  
i don't agree with the law, and am a pretty big feminist, but don't agree with this fully. There have been laws telling men what to do with their bodies--military service requirements.
there are also laws relating to what you can do with your body that affect men and women equally--(i posted some above, but drug use, suicide, prostitution or solicitation of prostitution)
women's bodies are unique in their ability to create and carry life and nourish a baby. i dont see what law could be required of men physically speaking when it comes to carrying a baby, birthing a baby, nourishing a baby. it is just an area that is hard to compare.
I think your example about drug use, prostitution etc. aren't really similar because those laws address not just the individual but the societal impact of those actions.
I wrote an extensive research paper on this topic in law school and for centuries there have been laws governing women's bodies and reproductive system - whether it be birth control, refusal to perform your "marital duties", or abortion. Yes, women and their bodies are uniquely situated and there is no parallel for men, however, I think that illustrates why men should not be making these decisions. Furthermore, of pressed i am sure I could come up with some laws for me...
yes, drug use and prostitution do have implications beyond our bodies, so although they are not identical, they are examples that the government does make laws that affect what we choose to do to our bodies when what we choose to do to our bodies affect someone/something else. (Suicide is a bit more complicated--the "protection" the government seeks to provide there does not affect others as greatly, I don't think) However, things like abortion and to a much lesser extent breast feeding also affect someone else. With abortion, the argument becomes when is a fetus/embryo/baby entitled to rights of its own where the burden placed on the mother needs to be balanced against its own rights--if ever. Breastfeeding is a different story. I don't think formula hurts a baby. Therefore, I would never be for a law that requires breastfeeding because I don't think you could ever argue that the harm placed on a baby receiving formula outweighs the burden placed on the mom. That said, I do believe breastfeeding should be encouraged and made easier for moms who wish to take on that burden. I don't think employers and society should be allowed to place additional burdens on moms who choose to breastfeed.
I am in no way saying that there aren't laws that discriminate against women. I just don't think you can make the statement there are no laws telling men what they can and can't do with their bodies. There are tons of laws that discriminate against women. And the lack of laws can also discriminate. If there are no laws protecting women who breastfeed--that can be discrimination just as easily as a law requiring women to breastfeed. Laws regarding birth control, reproduction can easily discriminate--and often do.
I actually wrote an article in law school as well relating to abortion and the legal grounds for permitting an abortion, as well as a research paper on women's reproductive rights. :)
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Posted 8/12/10 4:28 PM  |
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monkeybride
My Everything
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Posted by mamakap
i didnt read the article ... does it say what happens if you physically cant BF?  
This would be my only concern. I was able to but it was very difficult and I didn't make it 6 months with my son.
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| Posted 8/12/10 4:39 PM |
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Lillykat
going along for the ride...
Member since 5/05 16253 total posts
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Posted by monkeybride
Posted by mamakap
i didnt read the article ... does it say what happens if you physically cant BF?
This would be my only concern. I was able to but it was very difficult and I didn't make it 6 months with my son.
The article (I didn't read the whole thing just a quick glance) said that there were medical exemptions.
I'm not getting into a BM or Formula debate - no one will ever win that one here bc there are too many emotions on both sides. I won't even comment on the law itself but just curious...
An aside though people are comparing formula to what we have here in the US- so I guess I'm wondering if most of the country DOES have an option or can afford an option of having formula that is as good as what moms in the US can buy/have access to. I think we take for granted that everyone in the world has access to quality formula etc that we do in the US. Does that change how anyone feels about it in general (aside from the mandatory jail time)- if you found out that many weren't giving formula at all or were watering it down or it was inadequate would it change your view.
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| Posted 8/12/10 4:46 PM |
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casey31
Mommy of 3!
Member since 5/05 2967 total posts
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Mommy to two boys and a girl
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Posted by Lillykat
Posted by monkeybride
Posted by mamakap
i didnt read the article ... does it say what happens if you physically cant BF?
This would be my only concern. I was able to but it was very difficult and I didn't make it 6 months with my son.
The article (I didn't read the whole thing just a quick glance) said that there were medical exemptions.
I'm not getting into a BM or Formula debate - no one will ever win that one here bc there are too many emotions on both sides. I won't even comment on the law itself but just curious...
An aside though people are comparing formula to what we have here in the US- so I guess I'm wondering if most of the country DOES have an option or can afford an option of having formula that is as good as what moms in the US can buy/have access to. I think we take for granted that everyone in the world has access to quality formula etc that we do in the US. Does that change how anyone feels about it in general (aside from the mandatory jail time)- if you found out that many weren't giving formula at all or were watering it down or it was inadequate would it change your view.
Yes- it would change my view. Good point!
As much as I am angered about the pressure to BF that goes on in THIS country- you are right. Perhaps they do not have quality formula, quality water to mix it with there.
Therefore, a child WOULD NOT thrive on formula the way they would here.
Thanks for bringing up that point! 
ETA: it still is upsetting to think of a woman being imprisoned for not BFing- but perhaps babies are dying from low quality formula- who knows.
What a sad situation all around.
We are very blessed here that we have options.
Message edited 8/12/2010 4:50:17 PM.
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| Posted 8/12/10 4:48 PM |
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NervousNell
Just another chapter in life..
Member since 11/09 54921 total posts
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..being a mommy and being a wife!
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Posted by annoyedTTCer
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by annoyedTTCer
Posted by CookieMomster
Posted by Momma2Be
Posted by Ophelia
just bolding these points b/c I find them very interesting.
in the very least, it's a fairly well rounded law. protects those who cannot from punishment, requires employers to be supportive (which is key) and is targeting public awareness.
since we cannot be sure what kind of formula they are using there...where it has so much of the same benefits that the brands we use here have, I will not condemn the law.
Although I don't agree with a government dictating how a woman chooses to feed her child, I do agree with you that at least it increases public awareness and forces employers to be supportive to breastfeeding mothers.
Sorry I don't agree. My body my choice. Why not make guidlines for formula there than instead of forcing something down someones throat.
At what point do you balance the my body my rights with what is best for an innocent party?
So I suppose I am abusing my "innocent party" of a child by not breastfeeding.
What a selfish beyotch I am.
THROW ME IN JAIL.
THROW AWAY THE KEY.
I never said abusing, those are your words
Trust me- it would be worse for my DD if I attempted to breastfeed. My diet is horrendous and I drink like a fish.
She's better off on formula.
And by the way she is "THRIVING" and gaining weight perfectly.
Sample size= one.
But that's the only sample I need...
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| Posted 8/12/10 4:49 PM |
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lvdolphins
My Loves!
Member since 5/05 46292 total posts
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
If I lived there, my kids would be starving.
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| Posted 8/12/10 4:52 PM |
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NervousNell
Just another chapter in life..
Member since 11/09 54921 total posts
Name:
..being a mommy and being a wife!
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Posted by lvdolphins
If I lived there, my kids would be starving.
They would rather them STARVE than give them formula and have them thrive on it.
Makes a lot of sense, right?
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| Posted 8/12/10 4:55 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
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remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by lvdolphins
If I lived there, my kids would be starving.
They would rather them STARVE than give them formula and have them thrive on it.
Makes a lot of sense, right?
actually, I am not reading it this way and that is what I find most interesting.
they are educating. helping. assisting. making employers responsible.
they are trying to make sure the child is fed and all bases are covered. they are trying to make the bf experience better for mothers. which is a miracle in an of itself in indonesia.
and they have a medical exception in place. if you don't produce I imagine you would be exempt since it is beyond your control.
in the context of this situation, it is actually impressive. and please God I hope people understand what I mean when I say that. 
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| Posted 8/12/10 4:58 PM |
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smdl
I love Gary too..on a plate!
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me
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Too bad there are no Laws there to stop child prostitution for dirty old men!!!!!
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| Posted 8/12/10 5:03 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
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remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Posted by smdl
Too bad there are no Laws there to stop child prostitution for dirty old men!!!!!
Plus one
ophelia likes this
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| Posted 8/12/10 5:04 PM |
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Goobster
:)
Member since 5/07 27557 total posts
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:)
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Maybe Gisele should live in Indonesia.
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| Posted 8/12/10 5:19 PM |
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Goobster
:)
Member since 5/07 27557 total posts
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:)
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Posted by smdl
Too bad there are no Laws there to stop child prostitution for dirty old men!!!!!
Good point.
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| Posted 8/12/10 5:19 PM |
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Janice
Sweet Jessie Quinn
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Janice
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Posted by Goobster
Posted by smdl
Too bad there are no Laws there to stop child prostitution for dirty old men!!!!!
Good point.
i just got ill reading this.
As far as I am concerned, I am all for the movement. But to make it illegal? I would have to be in that country to see what is going on.
I wish the US would start a movement though.
I hear ignorant, not mean, but ignorant statements all the time re: bfing.
We need longer maternity leaves, understanding employers, and education all around.
In Canada, before you can receive WIC you need to provide a dr's note explaing why you are not able to nurse.
Maybe Indonesia's gov't has had enough.
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| Posted 8/12/10 5:55 PM |
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SofiaBella
LIF Adolescent
Member since 5/07 785 total posts
Name:
Vanessa
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Isn't Indonesia where the video of the 2 or 3 year old boy chain smoking came from.
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| Posted 8/12/10 6:00 PM |
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dm24angel
Happiness
Member since 5/05 34581 total posts
Name:
Donna
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by lvdolphins
If I lived there, my kids would be starving.
They would rather them STARVE than give them formula and have them thrive on it.
Makes a lot of sense, right?
actually, I am not reading it this way and that is what I find most interesting.
they are educating. helping. assisting. making employers responsible.
they are trying to make sure the child is fed and all bases are covered. they are trying to make the bf experience better for mothers. which is a miracle in an of itself in indonesia.
and they have a medical exception in place. if you don't produce I imagine you would be exempt since it is beyond your control.
in the context of this situation, it is actually impressive. and please God I hope people understand what I mean when I say that.
But what if they just don't want to? What if they are able to produce but it makes them miserable? I'm all for seeing the good in this...in anything but it just makes me sad we can carry a baby...give birth to it and then not have the right to take care of it ,.besides blatant neglect of course..the way we see fit.
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| Posted 8/12/10 6:13 PM |
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summerBaby10
let's be nice
Member since 9/07 10208 total posts
Name:
Wifey
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Posted by smdl
Too bad there are no Laws there to stop child prostitution for dirty old men!!!!!
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| Posted 8/12/10 6:26 PM |
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Peainapod
Peanuts are here!
Member since 1/09 13591 total posts
Name:
Diana
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
good..tell Giselle she should move to Indonesia...
insanity...
Im all for promoting the benefits of BF'ing and having employers and everyone else be supportive, making everyone aware. BUT IT IS NOT FOR EVERYONE. If I CHOOSE NOT TO, thats my choice and not the F*** gov't.
Message edited 8/12/2010 6:47:33 PM.
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| Posted 8/12/10 6:45 PM |
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mom2aidan
2 boys & 1 girl :)
Member since 11/06 1874 total posts
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
How about educating people about the benefits, providing time and incentives to do it and STILL GIVING WOMEN THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE???????????
I hate seeing posts like this. I find them so upsetting. I desperately wanted to bf my boys. With DS1 I could not get my supply up. I tried EVERYTHING. DS2 was tongue tied. This just makes me feel like I've done my children a disservice when there are countries making formula ILLEGAL for the first 6 months
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| Posted 8/12/10 7:28 PM |
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casey31
Mommy of 3!
Member since 5/05 2967 total posts
Name:
Mommy to two boys and a girl
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
In Canada, before you can receive WIC you need to provide a dr's note explaing why you are not able to nurse.
I find this awful- a woman doesn't qualify for help from the Canadian government for funds to feed her child unless she can PROVE that she COULDN'T nurse?
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| Posted 8/12/10 7:47 PM |
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Posted by annoyedTTCer
Posted by CookieMomster
Posted by Momma2Be
Posted by Ophelia
just bolding these points b/c I find them very interesting.
in the very least, it's a fairly well rounded law. protects those who cannot from punishment, requires employers to be supportive (which is key) and is targeting public awareness.
since we cannot be sure what kind of formula they are using there...where it has so much of the same benefits that the brands we use here have, I will not condemn the law.
Although I don't agree with a government dictating how a woman chooses to feed her child, I do agree with you that at least it increases public awareness and forces employers to be supportive to breastfeeding mothers.
Sorry I don't agree. My body my choice. Why not make guidlines for formula there than instead of forcing something down someones throat.
At what point do you balance the my body my rights with what is best for an innocent party?
NM I just realized I have nothing of substance to add here
Message edited 8/12/2010 8:18:22 PM.
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| Posted 8/12/10 7:54 PM |
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Disneygirl
Disney cruise bound!
Member since 5/05 8126 total posts
Name:
D
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Posted by casey31
In Canada, before you can receive WIC you need to provide a dr's note explaing why you are not able to nurse.
I find this awful- a woman doesn't qualify for help from the Canadian government for funds to feed her child unless she can PROVE that she COULDN'T nurse?
What's wrong with that? If there are no medical reasons why she can't breastfeed why should the gov't buy something that she is making for free?!!
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| Posted 8/12/10 9:23 PM |
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Ian&EmmesMommy23
My family is complete!
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Diana
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
ummm...wow...yeah....ummm...uh huh. wow. can i use the  emoticon here for it's original purpose?
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| Posted 8/12/10 9:26 PM |
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Leeners
:)
Member since 5/05 4898 total posts
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Eileen
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Late to the game on this one but I think it's important to consider where the law has been created. Indonesia ranks among the poorest and most overpopulated nations in the world. Their water supply is riddled with disease - they are 2nd or 3rd in the world for # TB clinics, and believe me - it's not due to their stellar medical programs. These women are not using Similac RTF - they're using a generic powder with this water to mix the formula. The law, in my view, is an effort to cut down on disease and death in infancy.
I don't agree with creating a law regulating women's bodies here in the US but as Ophelia noted a few times, the context here is numero uno. This isn't the US, it's Indonesia. Similar movements, though not yet laws, go on throughout Africa for the same reasons.
I am lucky to be an American woman as I chose not to BF either of my children. Not a drop - they were FF from the minute they entered this world b/c I had first rate formula available to me. My children - a sample of TWO - are wonderful, in the 70th and 90th percentile, respectively, for their size, years ahead in much of their development and are happy boys.
For my family that was the better choice and anyone who doesn't like it can go scratch.
Message edited 8/13/2010 7:55:57 AM.
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| Posted 8/13/10 7:36 AM |
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CrankyPants
I'm cranky
Member since 7/06 18178 total posts
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Mama Cranky
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Re: IT'S THE LAW! - MANDATORY BREASTFEEDING FOR 6 MOS. IN INDONESIA
Posted by Leeners
Late to the game on this one but I think it's important to consider where the law has been created. Indonesia ranks among the poorest and most overpopulated nations in the world. Their water supply is riddled with disease - they are 2nd or 3rd in the world for # TB clinics, and believe me - it's not due to their stellar medical programs. These women are not using Similac RTF - they're using a generic powder with this water to mix the formula. The law, in my view, is an effort to cut down on disease and death in infancy.
I don't agree with creating a law regulating women's bodies here in the US but as Ophelia noted a few times, the context here is numero uno. This isn't the US, it's Indonesia. Similar movements, though not yet laws, go on throughout Africa for the same reasons.
I am lucky to be an American woman as I chose not to BF either of my children. Not a drop - they were FF from the minute they entered this world b/c I had first rate formula available to me. My children - a sample of TWO - are wonderful, in the 70th and 90th percentile, respectively, for their size, years ahead in much of their development and are happy boys.
For my family that was the better choice and anyone who doesn't like it can go scratch.
Okay, this I agree with. You are right. If the only way to prepare formula is with contaminated water then it is in fact poison and I could see the need for a law with exceptions based on capability.
I think most of us think of this situation as if it was happening in a county like ours wherein this issue does not exist.
I can see a need for some sort of law is those kinds of countries. In THIS country-I am all for education and campaigning on the issue (maybe more women would be comfortable with it) but there is no way I would be okay with a law in our land.
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| Posted 8/13/10 8:53 AM |
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