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MC09
arrrghhh!!!!
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by jlm2008
Posted by MC09
Posted by jlm2008
Posted by seaside
Posted by JP826
Posted by BaseballWidow
It is NOT a person and therefore does not have rights. The woman carrying the fetus does, however. A right to decided what she needs to do for herself and her family. As an actual person responsible for herself and possibly other people, already.
I seriously want to know how many people so opposed to abortion have actually gone out, supported a woman emotionally, physically and financially through her entire pregnancy and then went on to adopt her child. Your "beliefs" do not supersede anyone's rights.
Heartbeat = LIFE
I respect your belief. May I ask (genuinely, respectfully asking)--how you and others who share this view feel pre-heartbeat, and even about craeting, but not using some embryos in the course of ivf? Genuinely interested.
I of course expect to be berated , because that is what most of the lovely ladies on this site who don't agree do, but I personally do not believe in IVF or any un natural means of conceiving a child. Which means I'm basically not having kids, since I'm already 38.
You could always adopt an unwanted child. It's one thing to fight for preventing a woman from choosing, it's quite another to actually go out and champion for these unwanted children you believe should be brought into this world despite their mother's objection and actually adopt one and give it a loving home and childhood.
You are absolutely right about adopting. What I meant more about being 38, is I am also single, so if I do ever have a family, I would very much like to be married first and I'm not sure if that will be happening at this point! I'm also not in the economic position to have a child now either
And many women who are faced with having to make such a choice as abortion are in the same situation, unmarried or don't have the financial means to raise a child. Some are in even worse situations. But those who are anti-choice don't think those are valid reasons for terminating a pregnancy. They think it's simple enough just to birth the kid and put them through the system until they are lucky enough to find a home with some OTHER family. Why is it there are a thousand valid excuses for not taking in unwanted children, but no valid excuse for a woman to choose what's best for her? The hypocrisy reeks.
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Posted 10/20/16 12:05 PM  |
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chilltocam
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Member since 11/11 9141 total posts
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by ChilisWife
I am very conservative but am very reluctantly pro-choice only because of some of the reasons noted above in this thread. However I do believe abortion terminates a life. For me, after seeing a heartbeat at a 6 week sonogram, I could never pretend its just a clump of cells. Honestly if a woman was happily pregnant and wanted that baby, and G-d forbid a drunk driver caused her to lose it in an accident, that mother would no doubt believe that driver killed her child. Ideally there wouldnt be a need for abortion but of course there is rape, there is medical issues, there is poverty and drug mother concerns.....I get it. But I think what upsets a lot of people are the women who use abortion as birth control under the battle cry of "its my uterus." Maybe it is, but there are many laws and restrictions on our right to control our bodies - such as mandating vaccines, outlawing assisted suicide, heck even saying what size sugary soda I can drink! I personally do not feel like the world is out to attack "women" but only women can get pregnant. Like I said, I support Roe v Wade but do have trouble with it.
Ok, so suppose the pregnant mother gets into a car accident that SHE causes, that is 100% her fault and her baby dies, or does something else that causes her baby to die - maybe intentionally, maybe not - should she get charged with murder?
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:06 PM |
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NervousNell
Just another chapter in life..
Member since 11/09 54919 total posts
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..being a mommy and being a wife!
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by lululu
Posted by ChilisWife
Posted by Kitten1929
Posted by jlm2008
Posted by Kitten1929
Posted by ChilisWife
I am very conservative but am very reluctantly pro-choice only because of some of the reasons noted above in this thread. However I do believe abortion terminates a life. For me, after seeing a heartbeat at a 6 week sonogram, I could never pretend its just a clump of cells. Honestly if a woman was happily pregnant and wanted that baby, and G-d forbid a drunk driver caused her to lose it in an accident, that mother would no doubt believe that driver killed her child. Ideally there wouldnt be a need for abortion but of course there is rape, there is medical issues, there is poverty and drug mother concerns.....I get it. But I think what upsets a lot of people are the women who use abortion as birth control under the battle cry of "its my uterus." Maybe it is, but there are many laws and restrictions on our right to control our bodies - such as mandating vaccines, outlawing assisted suicide, heck even saying what size sugary soda I can drink! I personally do not feel like the world is out to attack "women" but only women can get pregnant. Like I said, I support Roe v Wade but do have trouble with it.
I totally respect your points and concerns. My question though - and not directed at you specifically - is do we really know how many women are using abortions for birth control? Abortions cost money...if they don't have money for birth control, how do they have money for an abortion? And how much of this is a myth, just like the mythical "welfare queens" (which many studies disprove the largely Conservative angle that women are unjustly abusing the welfare system). So how valid is this concern, and how much is predicated on myth?
I found this article and it gives some fantastic information
Foiling Fallacies
I know you will find a way to criticize whatever I say, but since it doesn't actually bother me, I'll bite. I had a close friend, who had three abortions. Did not use birth control ever, also was not wealthy, actually very low middle class. These abortions were done well into her 20's, she was not a teen.She used abortions as birth control. I don't know why, or how, forget about all my beliefs, but I never understood how that was the economical choice. She also had an abortion at 24 weeks...so for the posters on this thread who say that never happens, it does.I did not know her at that time, so I'm not sure where she had it performed, but she did say she had to go somewhere else for it.
I appreciate your response and I do agree that yes, there ARE women who use abortions as birth control. I just don't know how prevalent it truly is or if we are all just believing in some right-wing propaganda that there are all these immoral women running around having abortions like they change their underwear. Maybe I personally just don't choose to believe that the amount is staggering - it happens, but I don't believe it to be on the scale the right-wing makes it out to be.
See I kinda see it the opposite way. I dont think that the vast majority of abortions are all rape victims and mothers of fetuses with diseases. I would be curious if there were any stats on that.
I know many, many people that have had abortions and all but one were because of an accidental pregnancy. The one that was not, the fetus would have died eventually anyway and so the pregnancy was terminated to end the suffering of the mother. I don't know one rape victim that needed an abortion.
How many rape victims do you know?
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:08 PM |
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Kitten1929
LIF Adult
Member since 1/13 6040 total posts
Name:
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by ChilisWife
Posted by Kitten1929
Posted by jlm2008
Posted by Kitten1929
Posted by ChilisWife
I am very conservative but am very reluctantly pro-choice only because of some of the reasons noted above in this thread. However I do believe abortion terminates a life. For me, after seeing a heartbeat at a 6 week sonogram, I could never pretend its just a clump of cells. Honestly if a woman was happily pregnant and wanted that baby, and G-d forbid a drunk driver caused her to lose it in an accident, that mother would no doubt believe that driver killed her child. Ideally there wouldnt be a need for abortion but of course there is rape, there is medical issues, there is poverty and drug mother concerns.....I get it. But I think what upsets a lot of people are the women who use abortion as birth control under the battle cry of "its my uterus." Maybe it is, but there are many laws and restrictions on our right to control our bodies - such as mandating vaccines, outlawing assisted suicide, heck even saying what size sugary soda I can drink! I personally do not feel like the world is out to attack "women" but only women can get pregnant. Like I said, I support Roe v Wade but do have trouble with it.
I totally respect your points and concerns. My question though - and not directed at you specifically - is do we really know how many women are using abortions for birth control? Abortions cost money...if they don't have money for birth control, how do they have money for an abortion? And how much of this is a myth, just like the mythical "welfare queens" (which many studies disprove the largely Conservative angle that women are unjustly abusing the welfare system). So how valid is this concern, and how much is predicated on myth?
I found this article and it gives some fantastic information
Foiling Fallacies
I know you will find a way to criticize whatever I say, but since it doesn't actually bother me, I'll bite. I had a close friend, who had three abortions. Did not use birth control ever, also was not wealthy, actually very low middle class. These abortions were done well into her 20's, she was not a teen.She used abortions as birth control. I don't know why, or how, forget about all my beliefs, but I never understood how that was the economical choice. She also had an abortion at 24 weeks...so for the posters on this thread who say that never happens, it does.I did not know her at that time, so I'm not sure where she had it performed, but she did say she had to go somewhere else for it.
I appreciate your response and I do agree that yes, there ARE women who use abortions as birth control. I just don't know how prevalent it truly is or if we are all just believing in some right-wing propaganda that there are all these immoral women running around having abortions like they change their underwear. Maybe I personally just don't choose to believe that the amount is staggering - it happens, but I don't believe it to be on the scale the right-wing makes it out to be.
See I kinda see it the opposite way. I dont think that the vast majority of abortions are all rape victims and mothers of fetuses with diseases. I would be curious if there were any stats on that.
Guttmacher Institute
National Center for Biotechnology
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:08 PM |
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Ian&EmmesMommy23
My family is complete!
Member since 11/08 12970 total posts
Name:
Diana
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Final Presidential Debate
omg people! separation of church and state!! i'm a jew and my DH is agnostic...so christian beliefs have NOTHING to do with us. that's great that people of faith have beliefs and follow them (i'm genuinely not being sarcastic) but keep that shit away from me. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME!
did everyone forget how our country was founded?? we wanted to get away from religious persecution. these topics have NO place in government.
I am a huge Bernie supporter so i obviously crawled into a hole and cried for awhile after he lost the primary. i toyed with the idea of voting 3rd party. but based on the statement hillary said last night "the united states government should not be stepping in and making those decisions"...i'm with her!
NO ONE has a right to tell me what to do with my body. I'm pro-choice...does not mean i'm pro-abortion. obviously no one wants to kill a fetus! but there are circumstances where it is necessary and no one is so high and f*cken mighty that they can judge another person on this decision.
i know i'm going on a rant but this is such a hot topic for me. like another poster said i wish the elections would stick to whats important. moral beliefs have NO PLACE IN GOVERNMENT!
OH! and "ripping a 9 month old fetus out of its mother" IS NOT A LATE TERM ABORTION!! its called a f*cken c-section and that baby will live! i can not believe people believed that shit he spewed out last night.
Message edited 10/20/2016 12:12:54 PM.
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:10 PM |
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ElizaRags35
My 2 Girls
Member since 2/09 20494 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by Ian&EmmesMommy23
omg people! separation of church and state!! i'm a jew and my DH is agnostic...so christian beliefs have NOTHING to do with us. that's great that people of faith have beliefs and follow them (i'm genuinely not being sarcastic) but keep that shit away from me. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME!
did everyone forget how our country was founded?? we wanted to get away from religious persecution. these topics have NO place in government.
I am a huge Bernie supporter so i obviously crawled into a hole and cried for awhile after he lost the election. i toyed with the idea of voting 3rd party. but based on the statement hillary said last night "the united states government should not be stepping in and making those decisions"...i'm with her!
NO ONE has a right to tell me what to do with my body. I'm pro-choice...does not mean i'm pro-abortion. obviously no one wants to kill a fetus! but there are circumstances where it is necessary and no one is so high and f*cken mighty that they can judge another person on this decision.
i know i'm going on a rant but this is such a hot topic for me. like another poster said i wish the elections would stick to whats important. moral beliefs have NO PLACE IN GOVERNMENT!
OH! and "ripping a 9 month old fetus out of its mother" IS NOT A LATE TERM ABORTION!! its called a f*cken c-section and that baby will live! i can not believe people believed that shit he spewed out last night.
At the end of the day, this is what it boils down to.
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:12 PM |
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NervousNell
Just another chapter in life..
Member since 11/09 54919 total posts
Name:
..being a mommy and being a wife!
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by Ian&EmmesMommy23
omg people! separation of church and state!! i'm a jew and my DH is agnostic...so christian beliefs have NOTHING to do with us. that's great that people of faith have beliefs and follow them (i'm genuinely not being sarcastic) but keep that shit away from me. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME!
did everyone forget how our country was founded?? we wanted to get away from religious persecution. these topics have NO place in government.
I am a huge Bernie supporter so i obviously crawled into a hole and cried for awhile after he lost the election. i toyed with the idea of voting 3rd party. but based on the statement hillary said last night "the united states government should not be stepping in and making those decisions"...i'm with her!
NO ONE has a right to tell me what to do with my body. I'm pro-choice...does not mean i'm pro-abortion. obviously no one wants to kill a fetus! but there are circumstances where it is necessary and no one is so high and f*cken mighty that they can judge another person on this decision.
i know i'm going on a rant but this is such a hot topic for me. like another poster said i wish the elections would stick to whats important. moral beliefs have NO PLACE IN GOVERNMENT!
OH! and "ripping a 9 month old fetus out of its mother" IS NOT A LATE TERM ABORTION!! its called a f*cken c-section and that baby will live! i can not believe people believed that shit he spewed out last night.
Well said
I am not sure how one religion can push their beliefs on the entire country.
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:12 PM |
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gina409
TWINS!
Member since 12/09 27635 total posts
Name:
g
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
If roe v wade is overturned does that include cases of rape,incest and danger to mother
Does it include a fetus that is passed and would force the mother to carry the child to full
Term
What are the terms of it,if it was overturned
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:14 PM |
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GoldenRod
10 years on LIF!
Member since 11/06 26792 total posts
Name:
Shawn
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Some stats on abortions:
http://www.abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/
...
Based on available state-level data, an estimated 954,000 abortions took place in 2014—down from approximately 983,000 abortions in 2013 and 1.02 million abortions in 2012.
In 2011, 1.06 million abortions took place in the U.S., down from 1.21 million abortions in 2008, 1.2 million in 2005, 1.29 million in 2002, 1.31 million in 2000 and 1.36 million in 1996. From 1973 through 2011, nearly 53 million legal abortions occurred in the U.S. (AGI).
Twenty-one percent of all U.S. pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion. (AGI).
...
WHY DO ABORTIONS OCCUR?
On average, women give at least 3 reasons for choosing abortion: 3/4 say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities; about 3/4 say they cannot afford a child; and 1/2 say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner (AGI).
Only 12% of women included a physical problem with their health among reasons for having an abortion (NAF).
One per cent (of aborting women) reported that they were the survivors of rape (NAF).
WHEN DO ABORTIONS OCCUR?
89-92% of all abortions happen during the first trimester, prior to the 13th week of gestation (AGI/CDC).
In 2012, 7.2% of all abortions occurred between 14-20 weeks' gestation; 1.3% occurred =21 weeks' gestation (CDC).
...
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:14 PM |
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gina409
TWINS!
Member since 12/09 27635 total posts
Name:
g
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
And as far as ivf babies are concerned I can assure you mine are perfectly natural 
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:14 PM |
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Ian&EmmesMommy23
My family is complete!
Member since 11/08 12970 total posts
Name:
Diana
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by gina409
If roe v wade is overturned does that include cases of rape,incest and danger to mother
Does it include a fetus that is passed and would force the mother to carry the child to full
Term
What are the terms of it,if it was overturned
if its overturned it'll give the states the decision which they will completely ban. so yes...a mother would be forced to carry.
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:15 PM |
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Ian&EmmesMommy23
My family is complete!
Member since 11/08 12970 total posts
Name:
Diana
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
i need to walk away from this cause this topic makes me shake 
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:15 PM |
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ElizaRags35
My 2 Girls
Member since 2/09 20494 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by gina409
And as far as ivf babies are concerned I can assure you mine are perfectly natural
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:16 PM |
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by gina409
And as far as ivf babies are concerned I can assure you mine are perfectly natural
And beautiful and smart and LOVED!!
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:16 PM |
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Ian&EmmesMommy23
My family is complete!
Member since 11/08 12970 total posts
Name:
Diana
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by BaseballWidow
Posted by gina409
And as far as ivf babies are concerned I can assure you mine are perfectly natural
And beautiful and smart and LOVED!!
and...if you believe...a gift from god! 
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:17 PM |
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MC09
arrrghhh!!!!
Member since 2/09 5674 total posts
Name:
Me speaks pirate!
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by Ian&EmmesMommy23
omg people! separation of church and state!! i'm a jew and my DH is agnostic...so christian beliefs have NOTHING to do with us. that's great that people of faith have beliefs and follow them (i'm genuinely not being sarcastic) but keep that shit away from me. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME!
did everyone forget how our country was founded?? we wanted to get away from religious persecution. these topics have NO place in government.
I am a huge Bernie supporter so i obviously crawled into a hole and cried for awhile after he lost the primary. i toyed with the idea of voting 3rd party. but based on the statement hillary said last night "the united states government should not be stepping in and making those decisions"...i'm with her!
NO ONE has a right to tell me what to do with my body. I'm pro-choice...does not mean i'm pro-abortion. obviously no one wants to kill a fetus! but there are circumstances where it is necessary and no one is so high and f*cken mighty that they can judge another person on this decision.
i know i'm going on a rant but this is such a hot topic for me. like another poster said i wish the elections would stick to whats important. moral beliefs have NO PLACE IN GOVERNMENT!
OH! and "ripping a 9 month old fetus out of its mother" IS NOT A LATE TERM ABORTION!! its called a f*cken c-section and that baby will live! i can not believe people believed that shit he spewed out last night.
People really need to stop.
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:18 PM |
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by gina409
If roe v wade is overturned does that include cases of rape,incest and danger to mother
Does it include a fetus that is passed and would force the mother to carry the child to full
Term
What are the terms of it,if it was overturned
Yes, each state would have to decide for itself (not too far from where things are now) BUT they could make ALL abortion illegal. I believe there is a case in Texas, recently, where a woman had to endure like a 3 day miscarriage to deliver a dead fetus, that was not gestationally viable, but was refused any medical procedure to terminate the pregnancy in a civilized manner because it still had a heartbeat.
Message edited 10/20/2016 12:20:33 PM.
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:19 PM |
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GoldenRod
10 years on LIF!
Member since 11/06 26792 total posts
Name:
Shawn
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Yes, some people abuse their right to have a legal abortion, but that doesn't mean we have to ban it.
Some people spew hate speech, but we're not repealing the 1st Amendment
Some people abuse guns, but we're not repealing the 2nd Amendment
Some people abuse the 5th Amendment, but we're not repealing that one.
Some people abuse alcohol, but we're not repealing the 21st Amendment
We can't strip rights just because some people don't like the way some people use those rights.
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:21 PM |
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MC09
arrrghhh!!!!
Member since 2/09 5674 total posts
Name:
Me speaks pirate!
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by BaseballWidow
Posted by gina409
If roe v wade is overturned does that include cases of rape,incest and danger to mother
Does it include a fetus that is passed and would force the mother to carry the child to full
Term
What are the terms of it,if it was overturned
Yes, each state would have to decide for itself (not too far from where things are now) BUT they could make ALL abortion illegal. I believe there is a case in Texas, recently, where a woman had to endure like a 3 day miscarriage to deliver a dead fetus, that was not gestationally viable, but was refused any medical procedure to terminate the pregnancy in a civilized manner because it still had a heartbeat.
Shit like this makes me so angry. People are so blinded by securing rights for a fetus that they overlook the rights of its mother, a living breathing person.
Uncivilized we are.
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:22 PM |
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MC09
arrrghhh!!!!
Member since 2/09 5674 total posts
Name:
Me speaks pirate!
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by GoldenRod
Yes, some people abuse their right to have a legal abortion, but that doesn't mean we have to ban it.
Some people spew hate speech, but we're not repealing the 1st Amendment
Some people abuse guns, but we're not repealing the 2nd Amendment
Some people abuse the 5th Amendment, but we're not repealing that one.
Some people abuse alcohol, but we're not repealing the 21st Amendment
We can't strip rights just because some people don't like the way some people use those rights.
you also can't cherry pick which rights are more important than others.
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:23 PM |
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Mrs&MrsK
i need sleep ;-)
Member since 2/14 2008 total posts
Name:
L
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by stinger
Posted by RainyDay
I missed roe vs wade. Can someone recap?
The question was about appointing SCOTUS judges. He said he would appoint 3 that oppose R v W. Then he said it would be up to the States but when asked again he said he would support overturning R v W if judges did
What about gay marriage? i didnt watch it because i just couldnt after the last ones, but my mom said he would appoint justices that would repeal?
From what i am reading, hearing, etc i think i will vote now....
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:24 PM |
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Ian&EmmesMommy23
My family is complete!
Member since 11/08 12970 total posts
Name:
Diana
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by Mrs&MrsK
Posted by stinger
Posted by RainyDay
I missed roe vs wade. Can someone recap?
The question was about appointing SCOTUS judges. He said he would appoint 3 that oppose R v W. Then he said it would be up to the States but when asked again he said he would support overturning R v W if judges did
What about gay marriage? i didnt watch it because i just couldnt after the last ones, but my mom said he would appoint justices that would repeal?
From what i am reading, hearing, etc i think i will vote now....
they actually didn't bring up same sex marriage. Hillary just brought up that she would support it. but Trump only mentioned he would bring in Pro-Life judges who would overturn RvW
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:26 PM |
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MC09
arrrghhh!!!!
Member since 2/09 5674 total posts
Name:
Me speaks pirate!
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by NervousNell
Ok well what about same sex marriage then?
If you are personally against it for religious reasons- does that mean it should be outlawed as well?
Because you PERSONALLY believe it's wrong?
That's where it becomes a slippery slope of imposing religious beliefs on an entire country- many of whom don't practice that same religion or share those beliefs.
That's exactly what they want. Overturn roe v wade, overturn marriage equality.
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:27 PM |
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evrythng4areason
And then there were 4
Member since 1/10 5224 total posts
Name:
Kayla
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by Mrs&MrsK
Posted by stinger
Posted by RainyDay
I missed roe vs wade. Can someone recap?
The question was about appointing SCOTUS judges. He said he would appoint 3 that oppose R v W. Then he said it would be up to the States but when asked again he said he would support overturning R v W if judges did
What about gay marriage? i didnt watch it because i just couldnt after the last ones, but my mom said he would appoint justices that would repeal?
From what i am reading, hearing, etc i think i will vote now....
I'm assuming that yes, conservative judges would be against federal gay marriage as well, arguing that regardless of personal beliefs it belongs in the realm of the states domain, not the federal government
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:27 PM |
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chilltocam
LIF Adult
Member since 11/11 9141 total posts
Name:
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by evrythng4areason
Posted by Mrs&MrsK
Posted by stinger
Posted by RainyDay
I missed roe vs wade. Can someone recap?
The question was about appointing SCOTUS judges. He said he would appoint 3 that oppose R v W. Then he said it would be up to the States but when asked again he said he would support overturning R v W if judges did
What about gay marriage? i didnt watch it because i just couldnt after the last ones, but my mom said he would appoint justices that would repeal?
From what i am reading, hearing, etc i think i will vote now....
I'm assuming that yes, conservative judges would be against federal gay marriage as well, arguing that regardless of personal beliefs it belongs in the realm of the states domain, not the federal government
So if a gay couple get married in a state that allows it and then travels or moves to a state that doesn't, what happens to their rights. It needs to be a Federal law.
Message edited 10/20/2016 12:33:56 PM.
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| Posted 10/20/16 12:30 PM |
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