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Final Presidential Debate
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jellybean78
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Member since 8/06 13103 total posts
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Mommy
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by jellybean78
But why?? If that is not your belief why should you support someones right to choose? In affect you're undermining someones religious belief..their faith by telling them to "own their privilege". You cannot force or want someone to support something that goes against their faith and religious beliefs.
Because we are supposed to respect people's differences.
Because we're supposed to be a free country, which means we don't all have to do/think/believe the same thing, but we're supposed to value our freedoms which generally means accepting things we wouldn't necessarily choose for ourselves.
By not supporting my choice because of your religious beliefs, you are actually forcing me to submit to your religious beliefs. That's as unamerican as it gets.
And the same can be said in reverse. By not supporting my belief you are actually forcing me submit to yours. That's also Un-American or does that not count because my views go against the masses? Too many gray lines here..
And yes while a lot of pro-life supporters are religious not all are so it's not all so don't automatically categorize all pro-life supporters into one basket. Plenty of scientist also believe life begins at conception.
Everyone is entitled to their beliefs equally.
No, it doesn't. False equivalency.
So long as you are not being forced to HAVE an abortion, you are not being forced to submit to anything. You don't have to like it - kind of like free speech. You don't have to do it. You just can't tell me that I can't do it. It's called FREEDOM. Pro-lifers want to strip freedom from women. You can argue it all you'd like but that's it stripped down to it's bones.
According to Forbes a pretty bipartisan source, around 24% or so of abortions are subsidized with tax payers dollars. I am a pro-life tax payer whose tax dollars are subsidizing abortions.... you tell me what's the difference?? Did I have a choice where my tax dollars went??
How much of your tax dollars go to welfare, WIC, public housing, food stamps?
My tax dollars go to public schools but I send my kids to private..
I hear your argument. It doesn't take into consideration that if that 24% of abortions don't happen, your tax dollars are likely going to pay for those children... federally subsidized day care, public housing, WIC, food stamps, welfare... for 18 years.
Or not, because I know there's a fight to reduce and maybe even eliminate welfare as well. So then those babies whose lives you protected - that same 24% of abortions that you helped pay for (because if you can't afford your own abortion I'm pretty sure you can't afford to support a child for 18 years) can be homeless, sick, hungry and die in the street. And well, obviously that's much better.
It's a simple point.
You telling someone who is pro-life that their belief can affect someone else's choices for their body is the equivalent of a pro-lifer saying that your pro-choice belief has the ability to make their tax dollars fund something they don't agree in. Who is right??
Don't deflect by bringing in that what ifs. You're making assumptions that all children who weren't able to be aborted will automatically end up homeless and starving..How do you know that???
I can go right back and say those babies who were not not aborted will be adopted by wealthy families and go on to be doctors and rule the world. Same type of argument different side of the coin.
Bottom line once again is that it's not black and white no matter how hard you want to argue your point. Just because you feel passionate about your views doesn't mean that someone else's is wrong.
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Posted 10/24/16 3:37 PM  |
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jellybean78
:)
Member since 8/06 13103 total posts
Name:
Mommy
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by mommyagain3
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by eroxgirl
Posted by jellybean78
But why?? If that is not your belief why should you support someones right to choose? In affect you're undermining someones religious belief..their faith by telling them to "own their privilege". You cannot force or want someone to support something that goes against their faith and religious beliefs.
Because we are supposed to respect people's differences.
Because we're supposed to be a free country, which means we don't all have to do/think/believe the same thing, but we're supposed to value our freedoms which generally means accepting things we wouldn't necessarily choose for ourselves.
By not supporting my choice because of your religious beliefs, you are actually forcing me to submit to your religious beliefs. That's as unamerican as it gets.
And the same can be said in reverse. By not supporting my belief you are actually forcing me submit to yours. That's also Un-American or does that not count because my views go against the masses? Too many gray lines here..
And yes while a lot of pro-life supporters are religious not all are so it's not all so don't automatically categorize all pro-life supporters into one basket. Plenty of scientist also believe life begins at conception.
Everyone is entitled to their beliefs equally.
No, it doesn't. False equivalency.
So long as you are not being forced to HAVE an abortion, you are not being forced to submit to anything. You don't have to like it - kind of like free speech. You don't have to do it. You just can't tell me that I can't do it. It's called FREEDOM. Pro-lifers want to strip freedom from women. You can argue it all you'd like but that's it stripped down to it's bones.
According to Forbes a pretty bipartisan source, around 24% or so of abortions are subsidized with tax payers dollars. I am a pro-life tax payer whose tax dollars are subsidizing abortions.... you tell me what's the difference?? Did I have a choice where my tax dollars went??
That number is skewed because it's equating federal aid for eligible women as a percentage of those that receive healthcare subsidies and Medicaid only covers abortion is the cases of rape, incest or because the mother's life is endangered. And not all private insurer's will cover abortion either. Federal funds do not subsidize abortions except for the incidences above. Refer to the Hyde Amendment which is information regarding the federal structuring of abortion and the prohibiting of such.
Many of the insurance companies under the ACA that are subsidized cover elective abortions. I'm pretty sure the ones in NJ do..
Forbes
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| Posted 10/24/16 3:44 PM |
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Kitten1929
LIF Adult
Member since 1/13 6040 total posts
Name:
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by jellybean78
Posted by Kitten1929
I fear this has just devolved into the same tired debate.
Jellybean thinks she's being forced to submit to the government's ideology on abortion. Even though we are a secular country, in which case I respectfully submit that her religious beliefs simply have no bearing - Constitutionally speaking - on the matter.
So keep your personal beliefs personal but don't ever think the government is supposed to take that into consideration.
Stop being super defensive and try looking at both sides of the argument. Did you read what I wrote???
First you are categorizing everyone one who is pro-life into one religious basket which is simply not true. So where do the non-religious pro choice people fall?? They're secular Americans. What about their beliefs? Are you going to tell me that 100% of people who are pro-life are religious?? You really don't believe that do you?? I hope not..
And there is argument that life begins at conception and there is argument that it doesn't. How do you prove who is right and who is wrong?
And I'm sorry but my beliefs make me who I am same as yours make you who you are. I am no less American than you so why do I have to support something I don't believe in? Should I do so to satisfy the masses?? Last time I checked the beauty of living in this country is that you don't have to conform to anyone's views, religious, political or otherwise.
I would think that we should be open minded enough to understand that and respect peoples differences but from the things I have seen and read here lately that's simply not the case.
I"m not forcing you to support my pro-life beliefs why should I be forced to support yours?? That was what I responded too.
Like I said I don't care what anyone does with their bodies but I am not going to be strong armed into becoming pro-choice because someone else wants the right to an abortion.
I"m not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine..period. Learn to respect someone's beliefs without having to call people names, be sarcastic or condescending..that's called being open minded and mature.
Whoa - I don't think I said anything sarcastic, condescending or called you any kind of name. I was simply stating a fact that as a secular country your belief is basically moot when it comes to Constitutional legislation. I am not at all trying to change your mind, just presenting the fact that a religious belief is not protected, nor should be, by our Constitution (with the exception of being free to practice any religion you want). You have every right to your belief, but the simple fact is that the government has no responsibiliy to take that into consideration when it comes to the legislation of womens bodies.
Message edited 10/24/2016 3:48:29 PM.
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| Posted 10/24/16 3:47 PM |
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RainyDay
LIF Adult
Member since 6/15 3987 total posts
Name:
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Final Presidential Debate
Bump
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| Posted 10/25/16 8:48 PM |
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hmm
Sweet
Member since 1/14 7984 total posts
Name:
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by ChilisWife
Question - because I honestly dont know - is it legal to get an elective abortion in month 7/8/9 if there is NOT a medical issue (health of mother, baby cant survive, etc)?
state of NY says abortion is legal til week 24m after that a woman must travel to Colorado
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| Posted 10/25/16 9:59 PM |
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hmm
Sweet
Member since 1/14 7984 total posts
Name:
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by bookworm
Posted by ChilisWife
Question - because I honestly dont know - is it legal to get an elective abortion in month 7/8/9 if there is NOT a medical issue (health of mother, baby cant survive, etc)?
It is not legal. After the first trimester, a doctor has to deem that a late-term abortion is warranted for medical reasons, and even that is only legal until 24 weeks.
There are a lot of misinformed, under-informed, knee-jerk emotional judgments on here. This thread is exactly why people who don't know should stay in their lane and let doctors and women make decisions about their own care.
Signed, another staunchly pro-choice infertile
in the state of NY a Dr does not have to deem the termination is needed due to medical issues after the 1 st tri. IN NYS it is legal until 24 weeks.
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| Posted 10/25/16 10:02 PM |
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hmm
Sweet
Member since 1/14 7984 total posts
Name:
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Re: Final Presidential Debate
Posted by Goobster
Posted by ElizaRags35
Posted by Goobster
Posted by ElizaRags35
Posted by Goobster
Posted by ElizaRags35
Posted by Goobster
Posted by NervousNell
Yes. And I hate how flippant people are about carrying a baby for 9 months too. Oh you were raped? Justt carry the baby for 9 months as a constant reminder of the horror you went through. Then go through labor and delivery. Thrn you can give the baby up for adoption. Easy peasy.
Please.
As I said above, I think there should be exceptions and there should also be limitations of term of the fetus of when an abortion can be performed. I was responding to people who make it sound so nonchalant.
No one carries a baby for 20+ weeks and suddenly decides they don't want the baby anymore.
Not sure so that never happens. And there are women who don't KNOW they are pregnant until they are far along.
What don't you understand? Late term abortions do happen, for various reasons.
I don't understand the comment about women who don't know they're pregnant last 20 weeks. I don't know the statistic of women who don't know they're pregnant but I would imagine the percentage is small and the percentage of those women who have an abortion after 20 weeks would be insignificantly small. The most recent CDC statistics show 1.3% occur after 21 weeks. I'd have to look up this up but I imagine that if the 1.3%, most of those are due to medical reasons.
That's actually not true. There are a variety of reasons women wind up having late abortions. Abortion clinics being too far, money, ambivalence, etc. Not saying this is the norm or prevalent, but if you read about this, the late term abortion - for medical necessity - does not appear to be the predominance.
And as for the women who don't know comment….I don't understand what you don't understand. A person does not find out they are pregnant until they are 4 mths and they then do not want the baby. You don't think this happens? Studies show young girls 20-24 are the ones most often seeking later term abortions.
while it is true some woman dont know they are preg, sometimes bc they still have a period and make no connection. Other times, they dont know due to denial
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| Posted 10/25/16 10:05 PM |
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