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Celt
~~~~~~~~~~
Member since 4/08 7758 total posts
Name:
colette
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
I simply do not understand how a graceful exit, complete with benefits and retirement package is even a consideration.
I thought SURELY we'd all learned something from the Catholic Church's epic mishandling of child abuse cases by predator-priests (and the systemic protection of them by the Church hierarchy).
Sandusky should ROT. ROT.
All those who saw/suspected/ignored it should go down in flames with him. And, to be sure, there are others not yet named who had an opportunity to STOP THIS and did not - they are just as guilty.
Whatever punishment the courts and the press mete out, it will never be enough. But how these "MEN" and I use the term loosely, can live with themselves is an incomprehensible mystery to me.
I hope their families disown them, their friends cut them out of their lives, their retirement accounts are cashed out to pay lawyers and press agents, and once, just once, I wish the victim and their families would get a chance to spend 15 minutes in a locked room with these motherf***ers, no questions asked.
Yeah that would be good.
I am LIVID.
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Posted 11/10/11 9:12 AM  |
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Long Island Weddings
Long Island's Largest Bridal Resource |
Mrs213
????????
Member since 2/09 18986 total posts
Name:
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
Pig is not even the word to describe this guy- he's a monster!
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:15 AM |
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PotofLuck06
Our Baby Boy Is Here!!!
Member since 11/06 13241 total posts
Name:
Betsy
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
I only started reading about this story over the last few days.....how did the story get to the press? I'm just curious how it unfolded since based on the facts, the assistant coach has been abusing these young boys for well over 10 years.
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:15 AM |
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ItsTime2011
Meh...
Member since 1/11 2148 total posts
Name:
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
I hate that now when I tell people that I went to Penn State THIS is what they will remember. It is sad. After 40+ years of service, this is how his career ends
(AND BEFORE YOU JUMP DOWN MY THROAT - I am not saying that he should not have been fired, what I am saying is that all the good he did is tarnished by what Jerry Sandusky did, and that Joe Pa didn't do more)
I am trying to think about what I would have done in this situation. Have you ever heard about a tragedy that happened to someone you know, and then remembered something you had seen or heard and wished that in hindsight you had done more? It happens all the time in child abuse, and domestic abuse cases. Lots of people don't want to get involved and they should.
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:15 AM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
EFF pPaterno.
this is exactly what I was talking about and it's a ******* joke.
you're a coach. you're a "hero" and you can't keep your own staff from raping little boys.
HE DID NOTHING. He DID SQUAT. I am so glad he was fired.
a message has to be sent that no matter WHO you are, if you allow things like this to occur under your nose without raising more than a curious eyebrow you are going to get FIRED.
CHILDREN.
RAPED.
PEOPLE.
KNEW.
end of friggin story. FIRE THEM ALL. who cares who gets the ax first. FIRE THEM ALL.
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:16 AM |
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Stacey1403
Where it all began....
Member since 5/05 24065 total posts
Name:
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
Posted by waterspout4
Posted by BargainMama
This story disgusts me beyond belief.
If you knew about it and didn't report, especially as a mandated reporter, you should be fired, period. I hope they all rot in hell.
Forgive my ignorance. But didn't Paterno report it to college officials? How does he go to police with hearsay?
As my cousin pointed out to me, he did what he was obligated to do, but failed morally. That is how I see it.
And for someone dealing with a legal battle of hearsay and other crap, you get screwed in it.
As a mandated reported he should of contacted CPS!!!
As for the rioters....I can only hope when they become parents one day they see the error of their ways
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:16 AM |
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Bella01
LIF Adult
Member since 5/11 3708 total posts
Name:
Mama
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
Posted by Ophelia
EFF pPaterno.
this is exactly what I was talking about and it's a ******* joke.
you're a coach. you're a "hero" and you can't keep your own staff from raping little boys.
HE DID NOTHING. He DID SQUAT. I am so glad he was fired.
a message has to be sent that no matter WHO you are, if you allow things like this to occur under your nose without raising more than a curious eyebrow you are going to get FIRED.
CHILDREN.
RAPED.
PEOPLE.
KNEW.
end of friggin story. FIRE THEM ALL. who cares who gets the ax first. FIRE THEM ALL.
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:18 AM |
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Stacey1403
Where it all began....
Member since 5/05 24065 total posts
Name:
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
Posted by Janice
But I have to say...something changes when guys call a man "coach"
I saw it in my brothers, I see it in my own kid at age 4.
The title comes with so much effing power.
These men are animals. The lowest of the low. To work on parents to gain their trust-then to have a boy call you coach...all to rape him in the shower-
the story is just too much
This, this, a million times this!!!
My 8 year old plays football and he idolizes his coaches!!!
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:18 AM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
Posted by ItsTime2011
I am trying to think about what I would have done in this situation. Have you ever heard about a tragedy that happened to someone you know, and then remembered something you had seen or heard and wished that in hindsight you had done more? It happens all the time in child abuse, and domestic abuse cases. Lots of people don't want to get involved and they should.
in your heart of hearts, you don't believe that if someone told you they saw one of your employees sodomizing a child in the shower, in your heart of hearts you don't think you'd do more than just reporting. maybe ask some questions of the accused yourself. maybe dig a little deeper. maybe make sure the school really followed up on it????
I don't believe that about anyone on this board. I just don't. I can't.
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:18 AM |
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Stacey1403
Where it all began....
Member since 5/05 24065 total posts
Name:
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:19 AM |
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Stacey1403
Where it all began....
Member since 5/05 24065 total posts
Name:
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by ItsTime2011
I am trying to think about what I would have done in this situation. Have you ever heard about a tragedy that happened to someone you know, and then remembered something you had seen or heard and wished that in hindsight you had done more? It happens all the time in child abuse, and domestic abuse cases. Lots of people don't want to get involved and they should.
in your heart of hearts, you don't believe that if someone told you they saw one of your employees sodomizing a child in the shower, in your heart of hearts you don't think you'd do more than just reporting. maybe ask some questions of the accused yourself. maybe dig a little deeper. maybe make sure the school really followed up on it????
I don't believe that about anyone on this board. I just don't. I can't.
Not a doubt in my mind I would bash him in the head with a bat!!!! Wouldn't even think twice about it either!!
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:20 AM |
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Linda1003
love my 2 boys
Member since 8/08 10923 total posts
Name:
Linda
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
Posted by ItsTime2011
I hate that now when I tell people that I went to Penn State THIS is what they will remember. It is sad. After 40+ years of service, this is how his career ends
(AND BEFORE YOU JUMP DOWN MY THROAT - I am not saying that he should not have been fired, what I am saying is that all the good he did is tarnished by what Jerry Sandusky did, and that Joe Pa didn't do more)
I am trying to think about what I would have done in this situation. Have you ever heard about a tragedy that happened to someone you know, and then remembered something you had seen or heard and wished that in hindsight you had done more? It happens all the time in child abuse, and domestic abuse cases. Lots of people don't want to get involved and they should.
Dont mean to jump down your throat but "all the good he did" What did he do!! he coached a football team and looked the other way while a crime against CHILDREN was being committed!!
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:20 AM |
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jerseypanda
Life is good.
Member since 1/07 9164 total posts
Name:
Amanda
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
I've been trying to understand this whole thing for days now. It saddens and disgusts me on so many levels.
I think there is outrage about Sandusky himself and what he did. I also think that for me, I know that the wheels of justice have begun to turn for him and he will get what's coming to him.
The outrage with Joe Paterno I think comes from a different place, at least for me. It comes from a place of seeing that the moral fibers of people are seriously messed up. And it makes me sad for the human race. For me, I have even stronger feelings towards the graduate assistant who actually witnessed the events with his own eyes and didn't go directly to the cops. I don't understand how any person with any sense of right or wrong would not take that information directly to the police. OK, so he called his father and he told him to tell Joe Paterno and he did that. I understand that there is a chain for reporting things, but I think this is something that falls outside the normal guidelines of reporting within the university. It's not like he saw someone cheating on a test. This was a 10 year old CHILD being sexually abused by a 60 year old man!!! Even if it's hearsay, why doesn't Joe Paterno go to the police? To me it's not enough to do "only" what you are legally bound to do. How about what you should morally do? To protect an innocent child from a predator?
It really saddens me to see that something this serious was basically swept under the rug. So that is why I think people are up in arms about Joe Paterno. He is being held morally accountable for not doing more. How could he not do more. I know he at least has 1 son because I have seen him talk on interviews. How does a man who has a son NOT do more? He made a mistake that unfortunately is coming at a great cost to him. It's a shame that an amazing career like his will end like this. It will forever be in the history books. And all I can hope is that it serves as a lesson to everyone that moral responsibility is just as important as legal responsibility.
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:23 AM |
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jambalady
Is it summer yet?
Member since 8/06 7392 total posts
Name:
Holly
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
Posted by waterspout4
Posted by BargainMama
This story disgusts me beyond belief.
If you knew about it and didn't report, especially as a mandated reporter, you should be fired, period. I hope they all rot in hell.
Forgive my ignorance. But didn't Paterno report it to college officials? How does he go to police with hearsay?
As my cousin pointed out to me, he did what he was obligated to do, but failed morally. That is how I see it.
And for someone dealing with a legal battle of hearsay and other crap, you get screwed in it.[/QUOTE
The way I see it, Paterno is a legend. Every Penn student idolizes him. He is god there. As someone else posted, the support from the rioters is "because you believe in the university as a collective whole"
The " university as a whole", it's main representatives CHOSE to sweep this under the rug.
While Paterno may have satisfied his legal obligation, what does this say about him morally, and those above him who perjured to the police?
What does this say when not 1, but many people in the administration swept this under the rug, in an effort not to taint the university as a whole?
I really think we need to look at the reasons why no one pursued this. The fear of the impact to the institution was greater than the impact on these poor boys lives.
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:24 AM |
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Linda1003
love my 2 boys
Member since 8/08 10923 total posts
Name:
Linda
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
I HAVE TO SAY.. I was an athlete in high school and in college (a little) so I get the ra ra aspect of sports and how wonderful it is for kids.. BUT WHEN ARE WE GOING TO STOP TREATING THEM AS ROLE MODELS AND GODS THAT CANT TO ANYTHING WRONG.. AND BECAUSE THEY CAN WIN A GAME BY THROWING A BALL/HITTING A BALL /OR GETING A BALL IN A BASKET THEY CAN DO ANYTING THEY PLEASE AND GET AWAY WITH IT!!
Message edited 11/10/2011 9:26:16 AM.
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:24 AM |
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Bella01
LIF Adult
Member since 5/11 3708 total posts
Name:
Mama
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
Posted by Linda1003
Posted by ItsTime2011
I hate that now when I tell people that I went to Penn State THIS is what they will remember. It is sad. After 40+ years of service, this is how his career ends
(AND BEFORE YOU JUMP DOWN MY THROAT - I am not saying that he should not have been fired, what I am saying is that all the good he did is tarnished by what Jerry Sandusky did, and that Joe Pa didn't do more)
I am trying to think about what I would have done in this situation. Have you ever heard about a tragedy that happened to someone you know, and then remembered something you had seen or heard and wished that in hindsight you had done more? It happens all the time in child abuse, and domestic abuse cases. Lots of people don't want to get involved and they should.
Dont mean to jump down your throat but "all the good he did" What did he do!! he coached a football team and looked the other way while a crime against CHILDREN was being committed!!
exactly!
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:26 AM |
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ItsTime2011
Meh...
Member since 1/11 2148 total posts
Name:
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
Posted by Linda1003
Posted by ItsTime2011
I hate that now when I tell people that I went to Penn State THIS is what they will remember. It is sad. After 40+ years of service, this is how his career ends
(AND BEFORE YOU JUMP DOWN MY THROAT - I am not saying that he should not have been fired, what I am saying is that all the good he did is tarnished by what Jerry Sandusky did, and that Joe Pa didn't do more)
I am trying to think about what I would have done in this situation. Have you ever heard about a tragedy that happened to someone you know, and then remembered something you had seen or heard and wished that in hindsight you had done more? It happens all the time in child abuse, and domestic abuse cases. Lots of people don't want to get involved and they should.
Don't mean to jump down your throat but "all the good he did" What did he do!! he coached a football team and looked the other way while a crime against CHILDREN was being committed!!
THAT is exactly what I am talking about. That is what you will remember. IT IS WRONG, IT IS AWFUL, and yes he should be fired and yes he should have went to the police.
Since I am a Penn State alum, I can say that before this scandal the man was EVERY where on campus (I even worked at a sub shop on campus named after him - Joegies). It's just hard to believe.
Also unfortunately because of all this the victims are getting lossed. Even Sandusky is getting lost in this. Everyone is talking about Joe Pa.
AND if we REALLY want to get mad, how about we get mad at the police who back in 1998 investigated Sandusky and then dropped all charges From the timeline as posted on ESPN:
"Jerry Lauro, an investigator with the Pennsylvania Department of Public Welfare, testifies he and Schreffler interviewed Sandusky, and that Sandusky admits showering naked with Victim 6, admits to hugging Victim 6 while in the shower and admits that it was wrong.
The case is closed after then-Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar decides there will be no criminal charge."
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:29 AM |
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Tulips915
................
Member since 8/08 6851 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
Posted by Linda1003
Posted by ItsTime2011
I hate that now when I tell people that I went to Penn State THIS is what they will remember. It is sad. After 40+ years of service, this is how his career ends
(AND BEFORE YOU JUMP DOWN MY THROAT - I am not saying that he should not have been fired, what I am saying is that all the good he did is tarnished by what Jerry Sandusky did, and that Joe Pa didn't do more)
I am trying to think about what I would have done in this situation. Have you ever heard about a tragedy that happened to someone you know, and then remembered something you had seen or heard and wished that in hindsight you had done more? It happens all the time in child abuse, and domestic abuse cases. Lots of people don't want to get involved and they should.
Dont mean to jump down your throat but "all the good he did" What did he do!! he coached a football team and looked the other way while a crime against CHILDREN was being committed!!
EXACTLY!!!
All everyone at Penn State cares about is football and this "coach."
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:30 AM |
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waterspout4
My loves
Member since 5/06 19150 total posts
Name:
Kelly
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
Posted by jambalady
Posted by waterspout4
Posted by BargainMama
This story disgusts me beyond belief.
If you knew about it and didn't report, especially as a mandated reporter, you should be fired, period. I hope they all rot in hell.
Forgive my ignorance. But didn't Paterno report it to college officials? How does he go to police with hearsay?
As my cousin pointed out to me, he did what he was obligated to do, but failed morally. That is how I see it.
And for someone dealing with a legal battle of hearsay and other crap, you get screwed in it.[/QUOTE
The way I see it, Paterno is a legend. Every Penn student idolizes him. He is god there. As someone else posted, the support from the rioters is "because you believe in the university as a collective whole"
The " university as a whole", it's main representatives CHOSE to sweep this under the rug.
While Paterno may have satisfied his legal obligation, what does this say about him morally, and those above him who perjured to the police?
What does this say when not 1, but many people in the administration swept this under the rug, in an effort not to taint the university as a whole?
I really think we need to look at the reasons why no one pursued this. The fear of the impact to the institution was greater than the impact on these poor boys lives.
I agree with this. I AM SICK over this all. I am not condoning Paterno's actions.
There are many adults in this and they all had obligations. INCLUDING THOSE THAT ACTUALLY SAW THESE HORRIBLE ACTS!!!!! The entire sweeping under the rug is F^*&ED UP!!
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:31 AM |
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waterspout4
My loves
Member since 5/06 19150 total posts
Name:
Kelly
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
Posted by ItsTime2011
Posted by Linda1003
Posted by ItsTime2011
I hate that now when I tell people that I went to Penn State THIS is what they will remember. It is sad. After 40+ years of service, this is how his career ends
(AND BEFORE YOU JUMP DOWN MY THROAT - I am not saying that he should not have been fired, what I am saying is that all the good he did is tarnished by what Jerry Sandusky did, and that Joe Pa didn't do more)
I am trying to think about what I would have done in this situation. Have you ever heard about a tragedy that happened to someone you know, and then remembered something you had seen or heard and wished that in hindsight you had done more? It happens all the time in child abuse, and domestic abuse cases. Lots of people don't want to get involved and they should.
Don't mean to jump down your throat but "all the good he did" What did he do!! he coached a football team and looked the other way while a crime against CHILDREN was being committed!!
THAT is exactly what I am talking about. That is what you will remember. IT IS WRONG, IT IS AWFUL, and yes he should be fired and yes he should have went to the police.
Since I am a Penn State alum, I can say that before this scandal the man was EVERY where on campus (I even worked at a sub shop on campus named after him - Joegies). It's just hard to believe.
Also unfortunately because of all this the victims are getting lossed. Even Sandusky is getting lost in this. Everyone is talking about Joe Pa.
AND if we REALLY want to get mad, how about we get mad at the police who back in 1998 investigated Sandusky and then dropped all charges From the timeline as posted on ESPN:
"Jerry Lauro, an investigator with the Pennsylvania Department of Public Welfare, testifies he and Schreffler interviewed Sandusky, and that Sandusky admits showering naked with Victim 6, admits to hugging Victim 6 while in the shower and admits that it was wrong.
The case is closed after then-Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar decides there will be no criminal charge."
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!
The ball was dropped EVERYWHERE!!!! Paterno is one of MANY. This is all sick and angering and makes me want to never let my son go.
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:33 AM |
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ItsTime2011
Meh...
Member since 1/11 2148 total posts
Name:
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (updated)
Posted by Tulips915
Posted by Linda1003
Posted by ItsTime2011
I hate that now when I tell people that I went to Penn State THIS is what they will remember. It is sad. After 40+ years of service, this is how his career ends
(AND BEFORE YOU JUMP DOWN MY THROAT - I am not saying that he should not have been fired, what I am saying is that all the good he did is tarnished by what Jerry Sandusky did, and that Joe Pa didn't do more)
I am trying to think about what I would have done in this situation. Have you ever heard about a tragedy that happened to someone you know, and then remembered something you had seen or heard and wished that in hindsight you had done more? It happens all the time in child abuse, and domestic abuse cases. Lots of people don't want to get involved and they should.
Dont mean to jump down your throat but "all the good he did" What did he do!! he coached a football team and looked the other way while a crime against CHILDREN was being committed!!
EXACTLY!!!
All everyone at Penn State cares about is football and this "coach."
That's untrue. At least for me. I didn't play football, and I never even attended a football game. I used to get annoyed that anyone who found out I went there immediately started talking about Joe Pa and football. BUT I am just mourning an end to the legend. I am in NO WAY saying that he didn't need to be fired. I am saying its SAD that this happened. It's finding out that someone you respected is a dirt bag.
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:33 AM |
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DRMom
Two in Blue
Member since 5/05 20223 total posts
Name:
Melissa
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (includes Grand Jury Report)
Posted by mrsBLT
Posted by Linda1003
Please help me understand the rioters!! Please.. b/c for the LIFE OF ME....IM SHOCKED!!! Are they really upest that this man was fired!!!!
Please tell me I am mis understanding these rioters!!! 
of course they are. in case you forgot, HE'S NOT JERRY SANDUSKY. he's not the one who touched or saw anyone touch any children. he was fired, but the vp is on administrative leave and the asst coach who actually SAW a rape occur is still employed....
i'm not supporting the rioters but i'm supporting my fellow psu students/grads who are upset at the way this whole thing played out.
proceed with tar and feather LIF'ers!
I'm kidding, but bottom line is everyone should be fired. Every single pathetic excuse for a man who was involved in this whole sordid ordeal.
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:38 AM |
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MrsA714
Baby #2 is here!
Member since 8/07 8806 total posts
Name:
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (includes Grand Jury Report)
Posted by ItsTime2011
Also unfortunately because of all this the victims are getting lossed. Even Sandusky is getting lost in this. Everyone is talking about Joe Pa.
AND if we REALLY want to get mad, how about we get mad at the police who back in 1998 investigated Sandusky and then dropped all charges From the timeline as posted on ESPN:
"Jerry Lauro, an investigator with the Pennsylvania Department of Public Welfare, testifies he and Schreffler interviewed Sandusky, and that Sandusky admits showering naked with Victim 6, admits to hugging Victim 6 while in the shower and admits that it was wrong.
The case is closed after then-Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar decides there will be no criminal charge."
I will admit I'm surprised more people aren't talking about this. How the DA did not file any criminal charges back then and how they can't even question him about it now since he disappeared in 2005.
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:40 AM |
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4PsInaPod
My Loves <3
Member since 7/07 10079 total posts
Name:
D
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (includes Grand Jury Report)
He had a morale responsibility to contact police, ANY human being should have. . . so yes, the school should have fired him and EVERYONE involved. It's Sickening.
These students should be ashamed of themselves, look at the bigger picture here. Look at these poor boys that endured this abuse.
Who the HELL cares about the damn freakin coach!
this makes me so angry!
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:43 AM |
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mrsBLT
missing my baby
Member since 1/10 1359 total posts
Name:
Brittany
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Re: Did we discuss the Penn State scandal? (includes Grand Jury Report)
Posted by Linda1003
Posted by mrsBLT
Posted by Linda1003
Please help me understand the rioters!! Please.. b/c for the LIFE OF ME....IM SHOCKED!!! Are they really upest that this man was fired!!!!
Please tell me I am mis understanding these rioters!!!
of course they are. in case you forgot, HE'S NOT JERRY SANDUSKY. he's not the one who touched or saw anyone touch any children. he was fired, but the vp is on administrative leave and the asst coach who actually SAW a rape occur is still employed....
i'm not supporting the rioters but i'm supporting my fellow psu students/grads who are upset at the way this whole thing played out.
I understand your anger b/c you went to Penn state.. but take a step back and see the big picture.. He had knowledge of what was going on and didn't report it to the police . Could you stand by someone knowing they abused a CHILD!!
I will ignore your snarkiness b/c I see your trying to stick with your Penn state alum and undergrads.. but please try and see what the real story is here!!
ETA: you said yourself you are NOT supporting the rioters.. so what's wrong with what I said...
i didn't say there was anything wrong with what you posted... i said i support the students and grads (in being ANGRY/DISAPPOINTED/DIGUSTED).
and i do see the bigger picture. if the many people who eyewitnessed these acts told the proper authorities - the police - then it would have never came down to whether or not joe paterno did the right moral thing. bottom line is he was only fired and is being flamed so badly bc he's the most recognizable face at the school. THAT'S what makes me angry.
if you want to point fingers and BLAME someone who isn't jerry sandusky, blame the Centre County Police Department detectives who investigated him back in 1998 and deemed it ok that he shower with young boys.  this whole thing could have been prevented if they did their jobs the FIRST TIME IT WAS EVER REPORTED THAT HE WAS DOING INAPPROPRIATE THINGS WITH CHILDREN.
Message edited 11/10/2011 9:53:52 AM.
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| Posted 11/10/11 9:51 AM |
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