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LSP2005
Bunny kisses are so cute!
Member since 5/05 19461 total posts
Name:
L
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
Posted by Blazesyth
Posted by LSP2005
This is why I always pay for the upgraded trip insurance. I would have been on a helicopter out of there instantly. The extra $100 peace of mind is so worth it to me.
I don't know if it works that way, I think its only in case of medical emergency. 
Articles I read on line said that there were a few people who were evacuated this way - one for medical emergency and one for non medical emergency. I pay for the highest level of trip insurance and make sure the line about evacuations is in there in case of medical or other emergent situations including but not limited to political unrest, and non-functioning boats. It does add to the cost of the trip about 100 per person, but in my mind it is completely worth it. You have to make sure that the correct language is in the policy you book.
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Posted 2/13/13 4:09 PM  |
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ElizaRags35
My 2 Girls
Member since 2/09 20494 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
Posted by Blazesyth
Posted by ElizaRags35
Posted by Blazesyth
Posted by ElizaRags35
How would they get the passengers from one boat onto another in the middle of the gulf? According to the USCG, it's safer to leave them on a non-functioning yet non-sinking ship than the dangerous act of transporting passengers in between ships.
I was thinking a tender, or even the lifeboats, just like they do at many cruise ports.
I don't think it's possible out in open water.
Hmm. They do it to the private islands right in the Atlantic ocean (CoCo Cay, etc) and to Grand Cayman - they seem to be more open to the ocean then someting in the area between Florida and Mexico would be. At least there it's protected by 3 sides.
You brought up a good point with the tender ports so I looked up some information and found this article written by a former Sr. Officer of the Triumph:
What It's Like Aboard the Triumph
"Why not transfer them to one of the other ships in the area, then? Sea conditions in the middle of the gulf are unpredictable, and even calm waters can change quickly. Trying to tender the passengers to another ship would compromise their safety, and passenger safety is Carnival’s No. 1 concern.
So though they may be uncomfortable, passengers are safest if they remain on board for a few more days as they’re towed to Mobile, Ala."
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| Posted 2/13/13 4:27 PM |
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Blazesyth
*yawn*
Member since 5/05 8129 total posts
Name:
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
Posted by ElizaRags35
You brought up a good point with the tender ports so I looked up some information and found this article written by a former Sr. Officer of the Triumph:
What It's Like Aboard the Triumph
"Why not transfer them to one of the other ships in the area, then? Sea conditions in the middle of the gulf are unpredictable, and even calm waters can change quickly. Trying to tender the passengers to another ship would compromise their safety, and passenger safety is Carnival’s No. 1 concern.
So though they may be uncomfortable, passengers are safest if they remain on board for a few more days as they’re towed to Mobile, Ala."
Who knows. I think they're playing CYA now.
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| Posted 2/13/13 4:49 PM |
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Blazesyth
*yawn*
Member since 5/05 8129 total posts
Name:
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
Posted by LSP2005
Posted by Blazesyth
Posted by LSP2005
This is why I always pay for the upgraded trip insurance. I would have been on a helicopter out of there instantly. The extra $100 peace of mind is so worth it to me.
I don't know if it works that way, I think its only in case of medical emergency.
Articles I read on line said that there were a few people who were evacuated this way - one for medical emergency and one for non medical emergency. I pay for the highest level of trip insurance and make sure the line about evacuations is in there in case of medical or other emergent situations including but not limited to political unrest, and non-functioning boats. It does add to the cost of the trip about 100 per person, but in my mind it is completely worth it. You have to make sure that the correct language is in the policy you book.
What company and plan do you use?
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| Posted 2/13/13 4:51 PM |
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ElizaRags35
My 2 Girls
Member since 2/09 20494 total posts
Name:
Me
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Fellow cruise lovers...
I believe I read that there were 2 evacuations, both medical. One b/c a passenger needed dialysis and another for a broken leg (not sure if it was a passenger or crew member). I've never heard of anyone being evacuated via helicopter for a non-emergency.
ETA: Except for instances of political/civil unrest or other dangers. I could definitely be wrong but I just find it really hard to believe that you can just get a helicopter to come in the middle of the gulf of mexico or wherever if it's not a medical emergency especially since the ship isn't sinking and is relatively safe all things considered.
Insurance Companies that offer Non-Medical Evacuations - I'm only seeing for Political Unrest or basically if you're being forced out of the country you're in. Maybe there are different ones for cruises?
Message edited 2/13/2013 5:13:02 PM.
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| Posted 2/13/13 4:52 PM |
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Blazesyth
*yawn*
Member since 5/05 8129 total posts
Name:
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
Posted by ElizaRags35
I've never heard of anyone being evacuated via helicopter for a non-emergency.
Me neither, that's why I want to see this policy. Maybe it's time for me to switch travel insurance companies!
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| Posted 2/13/13 5:01 PM |
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LSP2005
Bunny kisses are so cute!
Member since 5/05 19461 total posts
Name:
L
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
I will have to look it up. I got it via the travel agent we use who is very good. This was in 2010 and we have not been on a cruise since, so I am not sure if the language changed, but I recall reading that and asked about it. I think the part of the policy was called Trip Cancellation and Interruption and Medical Evacuation.
It was the platinum plan - under section n. pages 13-14 of the download. They would need to have had 50% of the trip still to complete but I think this would cover it. http://buy.travelguard.com/tgi2/proc/launch.aspx?intcmp=clc-001-Nav-2-AllProductsListing&br=tgdirect&cn=1&st=31&arc=000329&dn=1&pcode=CTT&plan=157345&prc=NW6600
EDIT TO ADD: I did not realize it was a 4 day cruise and the last day, this policy would not apply. I don't recall the limitation in 2010 so it might new.
Message edited 2/13/2013 6:45:48 PM.
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| Posted 2/13/13 6:12 PM |
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
I have been reading that mega thread about the Triumph on the Cruise Critic boards since Monday night..and all I can say is WOW, I feel horrible for anyone that is on that disabled ship right now. I cant even imagine how the conditions must be.
I have taken just 2 Royal Caribbean cruises but after this, there is NO WAY on earth I will ever go on a Carnival cruise even if it was free! There's a reason why the prices are so low - Carnival caters to the lowest denominator in terms of cruise ship design, maintenance, demographics, and price. Plus, many cruisers from Carnival on the CC board have stated they should have dry docked the Triumph after a similar incident a few weeks ago. This to me, is just inexcusable. Of all the major incidents on cruise ships, lately it seems as Carnival is usually the company behind it. There is no way I would consider cruising with them until they get their ships up to date and not have at least a good 5 year period of zero mishaps on any of their ships.
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| Posted 2/13/13 6:25 PM |
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
I have a cruise planned this summer and wouldn't think twice to cancel just like I wouldn't cancel a plane ride if one crashes or a car trip if I hear of a car accident.
We have been on NCL and RCCL and while NCL was nice, I thought they did not offer enough food (snacks). I love the promenade on RCCL with 24 hour snacks.
It is horrible what these people are going through and I probably wouldn't go Carnival again but then I don't know as if that was the cruise line I enjoyed, I might give it another try.
This ship had problems before so I would have thought twice before booking it if I knew that.
I personally know people who don't even research the ship they are going on. They go purely for the price and some didn't even know where they were going.
I am a cruise critic whore lol. When I have a cruise planned, I am on there all the time. I love reading reviews, seeing all the pictures and getting excited for my own cruise. I have done that also on the Disney messageboard when having a trip planned there too. I can't imagine basically "winging" my vacation. lol.
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| Posted 2/13/13 7:18 PM |
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ElizaRags35
My 2 Girls
Member since 2/09 20494 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
Posted by EclecticEsq10810
I have been reading that mega thread about the Triumph on the Cruise Critic boards since Monday night..and all I can say is WOW, I feel horrible for anyone that is on that disabled ship right now. I cant even imagine how the conditions must be.
I have taken just 2 Royal Caribbean cruises but after this, there is NO WAY on earth I will ever go on a Carnival cruise even if it was free! There's a reason why the prices are so low - Carnival caters to the lowest denominator in terms of cruise ship design, maintenance, demographics, and price. Plus, many cruisers from Carnival on the CC board have stated they should have dry docked the Triumph after a similar incident a few weeks ago. This to me, is just inexcusable. Of all the major incidents on cruise ships, lately it seems as Carnival is usually the company behind it. There is no way I would consider cruising with them until they get their ships up to date and not have at least a good 5 year period of zero mishaps on any of their ships.
Wow... unless you've actually been on one of their cruises, I don't think it's fair to comment on "design, maintenance DEMOGRAPHICS (I mean, for real?), etc. As I said before, I've been on 6 and they've all been fabulous from the service to the people. The quality has always been superb. Don't knock it til you've tried it. Sheesh.
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| Posted 2/13/13 8:15 PM |
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
Posted by ElizaRags35
Posted by EclecticEsq10810
I have been reading that mega thread about the Triumph on the Cruise Critic boards since Monday night..and all I can say is WOW, I feel horrible for anyone that is on that disabled ship right now. I cant even imagine how the conditions must be.
I have taken just 2 Royal Caribbean cruises but after this, there is NO WAY on earth I will ever go on a Carnival cruise even if it was free! There's a reason why the prices are so low - Carnival caters to the lowest denominator in terms of cruise ship design, maintenance, demographics, and price. Plus, many cruisers from Carnival on the CC board have stated they should have dry docked the Triumph after a similar incident a few weeks ago. This to me, is just inexcusable. Of all the major incidents on cruise ships, lately it seems as Carnival is usually the company behind it. There is no way I would consider cruising with them until they get their ships up to date and not have at least a good 5 year period of zero mishaps on any of their ships.
Wow... unless you've actually been on one of their cruises, I don't think it's fair to comment on "design, maintenance DEMOGRAPHICS (I mean, for real?), etc. As I said before, I've been on 6 and they've all been fabulous from the service to the people. The quality has always been superb. Don't knock it til you've tried it. Sheesh.
By demographics, I mean age, gender, class mostly. There was a huge thread on CC about Carnival pax v. other cruise lines' pax - Carnival always scored higher on the attractive scale for cruisers who were younger. Holland America, for example, has a reputation for attracting older folks. Disney, for example, has a tendency to attract more families with kids. The RCCL cruise I took had a good mix of all people, from all geographic areas, but definitely not as many kids as I would expect to encounter on a Disney cruise or as many party-type revellers on a 3 day Carnival cruise. I dont need to go on a Carnival cruise to imagine what my experience would be - my friends have been on there and told me. One couple we know refuses to go on any Carnival cruise after sailing other lines because Carnival ships are simply not as clean as other ships.
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| Posted 2/13/13 8:36 PM |
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Blazesyth
*yawn*
Member since 5/05 8129 total posts
Name:
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
Posted by LSP2005
I will have to look it up. I got it via the travel agent we use who is very good. This was in 2010 and we have not been on a cruise since, so I am not sure if the language changed, but I recall reading that and asked about it. I think the part of the policy was called Trip Cancellation and Interruption and Medical Evacuation.
It was the platinum plan - under section n. pages 13-14 of the download. They would need to have had 50% of the trip still to complete but I think this would cover it. http://buy.travelguard.com/tgi2/proc/launch.aspx?intcmp=clc-001-Nav-2-AllProductsListing&br=tgdirect&cn=1&st=31&arc=000329&dn=1&pcode=CTT&plan=157345&prc=NW6600
EDIT TO ADD: I did not realize it was a 4 day cruise and the last day, this policy would not apply. I don't recall the limitation in 2010 so it might new.
The Insurer will pay a benefit, up to the Maximum Limit shown
on the Schedule, if an Insured cancels his/her Trip or is unable
to continue on his/her Trip due to the following Unforeseen
events: mechanical/equipment failure of a Common Carrier that occurs
on a scheduled Trip and causes complete cessation of the
Insured’s travel and results of a Loss of 50% of the Insured’s Trip
length;
Hmm, the way I read that is that they will give you money back if yo u didnt make it halfway thru without incident - not pay to airlift you off the ship.
So if you are on a 7 day cruise, if you get thru day 4 and day 5 something happens, you're SOL because you've already had 50% of your trip completed without incident? In that case that it seems that you wouldn't even get money back, let alone a helicopter coming for you.
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| Posted 2/13/13 9:26 PM |
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LSP2005
Bunny kisses are so cute!
Member since 5/05 19461 total posts
Name:
L
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
They modified the language. It used to say they would get you.
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| Posted 2/13/13 9:51 PM |
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Kissy331
My two miracles!
Member since 5/06 17826 total posts
Name:
Kristen
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
I feel terrible for those stranded at sea but it will not deter me from sailing in the future. Like others have said, I would avoid Carnival all together. I was never truly fond of their line.
I think like any vacation, you are always subject to having a bad experience some unfortunately can be traumatic. Best thing is research & avoiding places or ships that had issues prior.
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| Posted 2/14/13 6:13 AM |
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mrsh2010
To travel is to live.
Member since 7/09 1679 total posts
Name:
Celia
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
I am a cruise lover. I have one booked for this year and 1 for next year already. This will not deter me from cruising. Personally I dont care for Carnival but that is my own taste. What gets me is that the cruise before this one went out had propulsion problems that needed to be fixed at one of the ports (I know this because I post on Cruise Critic and people that were on that ship posted this info). If they knew there was problems why did they send that ship back out for the next trip without checking deeper into it? Carnival is doing right by the passengers though. All money returned for the cruise, a credit for a free future cruise, any money spent on board with the exception of casino and shops will be returned, and any flights to get them home.
I would rather be in the ocean and lose power than in the air and lose power!
ETA- The reason i dont like Carnival is solely based on the food. Not demographics or any of that other crap. I have cruised a few different cruise lines and they are all pretty much the same. Actually I will find out about Princess this summer.
Message edited 2/14/2013 2:03:50 PM.
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| Posted 2/14/13 1:59 PM |
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lynnd126
LIF Adult
Member since 3/11 2630 total posts
Name:
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
Posted by EclecticEsq10810
Posted by ElizaRags35
Posted by EclecticEsq10810
I have been reading that mega thread about the Triumph on the Cruise Critic boards since Monday night..and all I can say is WOW, I feel horrible for anyone that is on that disabled ship right now. I cant even imagine how the conditions must be.
I have taken just 2 Royal Caribbean cruises but after this, there is NO WAY on earth I will ever go on a Carnival cruise even if it was free! There's a reason why the prices are so low - Carnival caters to the lowest denominator in terms of cruise ship design, maintenance, demographics, and price. Plus, many cruisers from Carnival on the CC board have stated they should have dry docked the Triumph after a similar incident a few weeks ago. This to me, is just inexcusable. Of all the major incidents on cruise ships, lately it seems as Carnival is usually the company behind it. There is no way I would consider cruising with them until they get their ships up to date and not have at least a good 5 year period of zero mishaps on any of their ships.
Wow... unless you've actually been on one of their cruises, I don't think it's fair to comment on "design, maintenance DEMOGRAPHICS (I mean, for real?), etc. As I said before, I've been on 6 and they've all been fabulous from the service to the people. The quality has always been superb. Don't knock it til you've tried it. Sheesh.
By demographics, I mean age, gender, class mostly. There was a huge thread on CC about Carnival pax v. other cruise lines' pax - Carnival always scored higher on the attractive scale for cruisers who were younger. Holland America, for example, has a reputation for attracting older folks. Disney, for example, has a tendency to attract more families with kids. The RCCL cruise I took had a good mix of all people, from all geographic areas, but definitely not as many kids as I would expect to encounter on a Disney cruise or as many party-type revellers on a 3 day Carnival cruise. I dont need to go on a Carnival cruise to imagine what my experience would be - my friends have been on there and told me. One couple we know refuses to go on any Carnival cruise after sailing other lines because Carnival ships are simply not as clean as other ships.
I think it depends on the length/ports. I did a 3 night rccl to the Bahamas and it was all partying but then a 7 night carnival that did central america and we had a perfect trip.
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| Posted 2/14/13 2:25 PM |
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ElizaRags35
My 2 Girls
Member since 2/09 20494 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
Posted by mrsh2010
I am a cruise lover. I have one booked for this year and 1 for next year already. This will not deter me from cruising. Personally I dont care for Carnival but that is my own taste. What gets me is that the cruise before this one went out had propulsion problems that needed to be fixed at one of the ports (I know this because I post on Cruise Critic and people that were on that ship posted this info). If they knew there was problems why did they send that ship back out for the next trip without checking deeper into it? Carnival is doing right by the passengers though. All money returned for the cruise, a credit for a free future cruise, any money spent on board with the exception of casino and shops will be returned, and any flights to get them home.
I would rather be in the ocean and lose power than in the air and lose power!
ETA- The reason i dont like Carnival is solely based on the food. Not demographics or any of that other crap. I have cruised a few different cruise lines and they are all pretty much the same. Actually I will find out about Princess this summer.
Also announced last night, each passenger will be getting $500 that doesn't have to be applied towards a cruise or anything like that. Just $500 each.
If you don't like Carnival b/c of the food, I'm curious to see how the food is on other lines b/c I've never had a bad meal on 6 Carnival cruises and I'm pretty picky. I'm going on NCL in 6 months so I'm really curious to see how it compares! 
And honestly, I've found that perspective and attitude count a lot when enjoying or not enjoying a cruise. I don't go in with any expectations. Just an open mind and a good attitude. On our HM cruise, the ship couldn't dock in Puerto Rico so we had to skip it. While a lot of people were pissed and claimed it ruined their cruise (even though we went to 4 other AMAZING ports!), DH & I were like, ship happens, woohoo for sea days! 
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| Posted 2/14/13 2:28 PM |
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ElizaRags35
My 2 Girls
Member since 2/09 20494 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
Posted by lynnd126
Posted by EclecticEsq10810
Posted by ElizaRags35
Posted by EclecticEsq10810
I have been reading that mega thread about the Triumph on the Cruise Critic boards since Monday night..and all I can say is WOW, I feel horrible for anyone that is on that disabled ship right now. I cant even imagine how the conditions must be.
I have taken just 2 Royal Caribbean cruises but after this, there is NO WAY on earth I will ever go on a Carnival cruise even if it was free! There's a reason why the prices are so low - Carnival caters to the lowest denominator in terms of cruise ship design, maintenance, demographics, and price. Plus, many cruisers from Carnival on the CC board have stated they should have dry docked the Triumph after a similar incident a few weeks ago. This to me, is just inexcusable. Of all the major incidents on cruise ships, lately it seems as Carnival is usually the company behind it. There is no way I would consider cruising with them until they get their ships up to date and not have at least a good 5 year period of zero mishaps on any of their ships.
Wow... unless you've actually been on one of their cruises, I don't think it's fair to comment on "design, maintenance DEMOGRAPHICS (I mean, for real?), etc. As I said before, I've been on 6 and they've all been fabulous from the service to the people. The quality has always been superb. Don't knock it til you've tried it. Sheesh.
By demographics, I mean age, gender, class mostly. There was a huge thread on CC about Carnival pax v. other cruise lines' pax - Carnival always scored higher on the attractive scale for cruisers who were younger. Holland America, for example, has a reputation for attracting older folks. Disney, for example, has a tendency to attract more families with kids. The RCCL cruise I took had a good mix of all people, from all geographic areas, but definitely not as many kids as I would expect to encounter on a Disney cruise or as many party-type revellers on a 3 day Carnival cruise. I dont need to go on a Carnival cruise to imagine what my experience would be - my friends have been on there and told me. One couple we know refuses to go on any Carnival cruise after sailing other lines because Carnival ships are simply not as clean as other ships.
I think it depends on the length/ports. I did a 3 night rccl to the Bahamas and it was all partying but then a 7 night carnival that did central america and we had a perfect trip.
ITA. Shorter cruises are known to be party cruises b/c they are typically on weekends.
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| Posted 2/14/13 2:31 PM |
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kahlua716
3 Girls for Me!
Member since 8/07 12475 total posts
Name:
Keri
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
Posted by EclecticEsq10810
I have been reading that mega thread about the Triumph on the Cruise Critic boards since Monday night..and all I can say is WOW, I feel horrible for anyone that is on that disabled ship right now. I cant even imagine how the conditions must be.
I have taken just 2 Royal Caribbean cruises but after this, there is NO WAY on earth I will ever go on a Carnival cruise even if it was free! There's a reason why the prices are so low - Carnival caters to the lowest denominator in terms of cruise ship design, maintenance, demographics, and price. Plus, many cruisers from Carnival on the CC board have stated they should have dry docked the Triumph after a similar incident a few weeks ago. This to me, is just inexcusable. Of all the major incidents on cruise ships, lately it seems as Carnival is usually the company behind it. There is no way I would consider cruising with them until they get their ships up to date and not have at least a good 5 year period of zero mishaps on any of their ships.
I just went to check ou tthat thread- I'm only on page 20 so far- but I want to slap some of those posters  "Any day at sea is better than a day at work" Yeah, right- I'd probably break my own leg to get off a ship where no one has been able to wash in 3 days and has been crapping in buckets. 
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| Posted 2/14/13 2:36 PM |
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Jax430
Hi!
Member since 5/05 18919 total posts
Name:
Jackie
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
I am a cruise lover, and have sailed Carnival twice, and had wonderful experiences. The last time was in 2009. I have also sailed on RCCL, and the demographic was no different. I read the blog of Carnival's senior cruise director regularly, and follow him on Facebook.
I feel TERRIBLE for the people on the Triumph, and cannot imagine being in that situation. I have to say that this incident will not deter me from cruising in the future, and I will still consider Carnival, although I am definitely concerned that they have had two such incidences in the past 3 years, and that the Costa ship that sank was owned by the parent company, Carnival Corp.
I also frequent Cruise Critic, and some of the people on the 200+ page thread about this incident are ridiculous. No one should prefer to be in those conditions than at work.
I am also keeping in mind that the media sensationalizes everything. I followed closely when they had the incident on the Carnival Splendor in 2010, and there were a lot of things said on the news that were later found to be untrue....so we shall see.
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| Posted 2/14/13 2:42 PM |
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Mushesgirl
Too blessed to be stressed
Member since 4/09 6691 total posts
Name:
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
Dh and I cruised once (on Carnival incidentally) and at that
time we could take it or leave it. We found it convenient to see Chichen itza since we wouldn't go to Mexico to stay there to see it.
However since these incidents we have said rrrrrrrnt to cruising. Just not that into it. Would rather go tour around on land based itineraries or sit my azz on an island
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| Posted 2/14/13 2:45 PM |
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ali120206
2 Boys
Member since 7/06 17795 total posts
Name:
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Fellow cruise lovers...
They just posted breaking news that a tow rope broke so the cruise ship is sitting off the coast of AL.
So sad for those people.
I know things weren't great when there was the fire in 2010 off of CA/Baja but, I don't recall hearing that things got this bad! Those poor people.
And they are being bussed to New Orleans from Mobile for the night? Why can't they just get off the boat and go to a hotel in Mobile and take a nice hot shower??? And get a nice meal?
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| Posted 2/14/13 2:58 PM |
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tourist
Member since 5/05 10425 total posts
Name:
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
Posted by ali120206
And they are being bussed to New Orleans from Mobile for the night? Why can't they just get off the boat and go to a hotel in Mobile and take a nice hot shower??? And get a nice meal?
I read that they booked 15,000 rooms, so my guess is that they could only do that in New Orleans, becaue it is a biger city than Mobile. It is about a 2 hour drive.
They also charterd planes for Friday, so, maybe those planes are leaving form New Orleans?
It's optional thouigh--there are also busses Thursday night to Galvetan & Houston & some people's family members ( msotly fro texas) have already driven to Mobile to meet them. And I guess if you wanted to try on your own, you could look for a hotel in Mobile.
Message edited 2/14/2013 3:25:32 PM.
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| Posted 2/14/13 3:25 PM |
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mrsh2010
To travel is to live.
Member since 7/09 1679 total posts
Name:
Celia
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
Message edited 2/14/2013 4:40:13 PM.
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| Posted 2/14/13 4:35 PM |
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JennasMom
?**?
Member since 11/05 3463 total posts
Name:
does it matter
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Re: Fellow cruise lovers...
It wouldn't deter me from cruising, we are going next month on NCL We have sailed Carnival twice and it was fine. We prefer Disney because Jenna likes it better and happy Jenna=good cruise for Mommy and Daddy 
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| Posted 2/14/13 4:55 PM |
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