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donegal419
St. Gerard, pray for us.
Member since 7/07 7650 total posts
Name:
K
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
I believe God gave us the science.
I mean the natural extension of this claim is that people shouldn't tkae medicine or undergo chemo because that's unnaturual and it's preventing people from dying and God wanted those people to die NATURALLY.
No, I dsiagree with you there... not being able to conceive is not life-threatening to the mother of father as it would be for a cancer patient. Yes, is it hard as hell when all you want is your own baby? Yes... but there are other options like adoption.
To me there is a great difference between taking Advil for a headache or getting some chemo. for cancer than literally using science to do what is in my opinion GOD"S work--- to create a life and in some ways DESTROY a life.
it's hard though... it's like which came first, the chicken or the egg.
ETA- but overall, the Church believes you as a person of faith, must let God take the wheel...let Him take control. Through science and other means, we share that control with god and is that right? I don't know....
Message edited 1/16/2008 5:41:54 PM.
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Posted 1/16/08 5:40 PM  |
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QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
Member since 5/05 13659 total posts
Name:
And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
Posted by donegal419
No, I dsiagree with you there... not being able to conceive is not life-threatening to the mother of father as it would be for a cancer patient. Yes, is it hard as hell when all you want is your own baby? Yes... but there are other options like adoption.
uh-oh 
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| Posted 1/16/08 5:41 PM |
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QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
Member since 5/05 13659 total posts
Name:
And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
Posted by donegal419
I believe God gave us the science.
I mean the natural extension of this claim is that people shouldn't tkae medicine or undergo chemo because that's unnaturual and it's preventing people from dying and God wanted those people to die NATURALLY.
No, I dsiagree with you there... not being able to conceive is not life-threatening to the mother of father as it would be for a cancer patient. Yes, is it hard as hell when all you want is your own baby? Yes... but there are other options like adoption.
To me there is a great difference between taking Advil for a headache or getting some chemo. for cancer than literally using science to do what is in my opinion GOD"S work--- to create a life and in some ways DESTROY a life.
it's hard though... it's like which came first, the chicken or the egg.
ETA- but overall, the Church believes you as a person of faith, must let God take the wheel...let Him take control. Through science and other means, we share that control with god and is that right? I don't know....
in all seriouness, let me ask this, because i don't know
do you have children?
are you TTC'ing?
do you have IF issues?
have you suffered a miscarriage?
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| Posted 1/16/08 5:43 PM |
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donegal419
St. Gerard, pray for us.
Member since 7/07 7650 total posts
Name:
K
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
Posted by QuoteTheRaven424
Posted by donegal419
No, I dsiagree with you there... not being able to conceive is not life-threatening to the mother of father as it would be for a cancer patient. Yes, is it hard as hell when all you want is your own baby? Yes... but there are other options like adoption.
uh-oh
don't get mad... it's just my opinion.
I think we're getting off topic from the original post.
But i will say that ME as a person, if i could NOT get pregnant, I would take it as God's will for me and my husband. I would probably not torture myself with IVF's and other procedures. I would hopefully have the stregth to say that this is my cross to bear and that there are other things God wants from me... it could be adopting a child, it could be taking in foster children, it could be spending my time volunteering, etc. I guess I just believe that it would be in God's hands and not mine whether or not I got pregnant. Hopefulyl I could live with the decision whatever it would be.
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| Posted 1/16/08 5:45 PM |
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donegal419
St. Gerard, pray for us.
Member since 7/07 7650 total posts
Name:
K
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
in all seriouness, let me ask this, because i don't know
do you have children?
are you TTC'ing?
do you have IF issues?
have you suffered a miscarriage?
No, to all of the above, but we will be TTC soon. and yes, because i have not experienced any of the above, i have NO idea of the pain of infertility, the sadness of miscarrying, the frustration of every month not conceiving, etc. etc. I can't imagine that pain, and i pray that i will never have to go through it.
but at this point in my faith life, i do think that if i went to the doctor tomorrow and he told me that i could not conceive, i believe that i would take that as God's plan for me and my husband and either look into other options like adoption or put my talents and energies into other postive outlets besides motherhood....
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| Posted 1/16/08 5:48 PM |
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QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
Member since 5/05 13659 total posts
Name:
And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
Posted by donegal419
Posted by QuoteTheRaven424
Posted by donegal419
No, I dsiagree with you there... not being able to conceive is not life-threatening to the mother of father as it would be for a cancer patient. Yes, is it hard as hell when all you want is your own baby? Yes... but there are other options like adoption.
uh-oh
don't get mad... it's just my opinion.
I think we're getting off topic from the original post.
But i will say that ME as a person, if i could NOT get pregnant, I would take it as God's will for me and my husband. I would probably not torture myself with IVF's and other procedures. I would hopefully have the stregth to say that this is my cross to bear and that there are other things God wants from me... it could be adopting a child, it could be taking in foster children, it could be spending my time volunteering, etc. I guess I just believe that it would be in God's hands and not mine whether or not I got pregnant. Hopefulyl I could live with the decision whatever it would be.
OK - that's fine - my "uh-oh" came from your stance that basically said "if you can't conceive naturally, just adopt.
That's fine for you - but talk to anyone on the IF board - it's not that easy.
and believe me when i tell you, you'd likely have a different position on the matter if you had an issue or if you lost a child.
You would tell any girl who has lost a child - that it was "God's will?"
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| Posted 1/16/08 5:48 PM |
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QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
Member since 5/05 13659 total posts
Name:
And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
Posted by donegal419
in all seriouness, let me ask this, because i don't know
do you have children?
are you TTC'ing?
do you have IF issues?
have you suffered a miscarriage?
No, to all of the above, but we will be TTC soon. and yes, because i have not experienced any of the above, i have NO idea of the pain of infertility, the sadness of miscarrying, the frustration of every month not conceiving, etc. etc. I can't imagine that pain, and i pray that i will never have to go through it.
but at this point in my faith life, i do think that if i went to the doctor tomorrow and he told me that i could not conceive, i believe that i would take that as God's plan for me and my husband and either look into other options like adoption or put my talents and energies into other postive outlets besides motherhood....
like i said, i would never wish what we and others on here have been through
and like i said, it's easy to have your position, not having been through it
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| Posted 1/16/08 5:49 PM |
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donegal419
St. Gerard, pray for us.
Member since 7/07 7650 total posts
Name:
K
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
OK - that's fine - my "uh-oh" came from your stance that basically said "if you can't conceive naturally, just adopt.
That's fine for you - but talk to anyone on the IF board - it's not that easy.
and believe me when i tell you, you'd likely have a different position on the matter if you had an issue or if you lost a child.
You would tell any girl who has lost a child - that it was "God's will?"
I know it's got to be hard as hell... and of course i would NEVER say to someone that lost a child that it was "God's will"....
but in a way, the tragic things in life our god's will too--- are they hard? are they painful? is life unfair? ABSOLUTELY... but I firmly believe God does have a plan for all of us, good or bad. As my mother says, "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." Life isn't always easy and I believe it is with God's grace that we get through.
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| Posted 1/16/08 5:51 PM |
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QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
Member since 5/05 13659 total posts
Name:
And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
so, let me ask you this
and it's fine because there is no central topic on this thread - we've had like 20 tracks 
we conceived through science - based on your view and the Church's view of it, should children, in your opinion, that were conceived artificially, be allowed to be baptized?
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| Posted 1/16/08 5:56 PM |
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itkocak
Member since 7/07 7639 total posts
Name:
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
Message edited 11/15/2011 9:51:42 PM.
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| Posted 1/16/08 6:00 PM |
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QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
Member since 5/05 13659 total posts
Name:
And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
the way i always looked at it was that if we had never gotten PG before, then maybe it was God's way of telling us to take one that needed a home.
But he made us PG twice - both resulting in miscarriage.
I have a hard time believing that God would tease us by giving us children and taking them a way.
if he didn't want us to have kids biologically, why would he tease us 2 times.
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| Posted 1/16/08 6:14 PM |
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Maathy317
Grammie's Little Man
Member since 2/06 3235 total posts
Name:
D
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
Posted by BigB
I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools, taught in the Archdiocese for 10 years, have a very good friend who is a Pastor of a chuch (who is so very gay) and had IVF! LOL....
I just try to seperate the politics of the church from the faith-based teachings...I have been lucky enough in life to have had wonderful experiences with priests who want change and are progressive in thinking. I believe in Jesus Christ and find that it is my faith in his teachings that guides me in life....not the politics of the hour with the church as an institution. I will also raise my two children as Catholics, but if they want something different, then I am open to that as well!
Very well said and I wholeheartedly agree. I attend Mass every day and find it very fulfilling. My children were raised Catholic. Outside of when I was a child, I never blindly followed the "teachings" handed down by the Church. I always questioned them. They are, after all, set down by man (and I'm not trying to be funny here), who we all know is flawed. I get my strength and beliefs from the teachings of Jesus Christ. We were not made to be sheep. We were made to think and make decisions based on what we believe in our hearts and minds.
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| Posted 1/16/08 6:19 PM |
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donegal419
St. Gerard, pray for us.
Member since 7/07 7650 total posts
Name:
K
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
Posted by QuoteTheRaven424
so, let me ask you this
and it's fine because there is no central topic on this thread - we've had like 20 tracks
we conceived through science - based on your view and the Church's view of it, should children, in your opinion, that were conceived artificially, be allowed to be baptized?
i am no theologian, but ANY baby that is brought to the Church should be baptized if that is the desire of the parents...regardless of how they were conceived. I would highly doubt that there is any "law" out there by the Church that says a child can't be baptized if they were conceived by science.
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| Posted 1/16/08 6:42 PM |
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donegal419
St. Gerard, pray for us.
Member since 7/07 7650 total posts
Name:
K
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
But isn't it God's will that there is an alternative? Are scientists and doctors not guided by God's hand? Are people that must use fertility methods not doing what they think God wants? It is never black and white. Sorry it's just that I feel that if God did not want people like Don and his lovely wife not to have children then all the fertility methods in the world would not work for them or those in their position.
I agree with you... it is not so black and white... and that's what makes it's so hard. but i think there comes a point where one has to make a decision one way or the other. those that choose alternative methods do so and those that do not, do not.
Message edited 1/16/2008 6:45:45 PM.
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| Posted 1/16/08 6:45 PM |
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neenie
Member since 5/05 22351 total posts
Name:
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
Posted by donegal419
i am no theologian, but ANY baby that is brought to the Church should be baptized if that is the desire of the parents...regardless of how they were conceived. I would highly doubt that there is any "law" out there by the Church that says a child can't be baptized if they were conceived by science.
the church didn't want to baptize me since my mom was a single mother and i was born out of wedlock. Luckily they've (most churches, anyway) strides forward in that aspect.
i think much of it depends on the church, as well. The church we go to is VERY modern as far as RCC's go, so while i don't agree with some of the church's stances, i do love that those ideals aren't really promoted at our church.
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| Posted 1/16/08 6:52 PM |
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donegal419
St. Gerard, pray for us.
Member since 7/07 7650 total posts
Name:
K
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
the church didn't want to baptize me since my mom was a single mother and i was born out of wedlock. Luckily they've (most churches, anyway) strides forward in that aspect.
i think much of it depends on the church, as well. The church we go to is VERY modern as far as RCC's go, so while i don't agree with some of the church's stances, i do love that those ideals aren't really promoted at our church.
those were the old antiquated rules... Parents can baptize babies even if they are not Catholic, if that is what they want for their children. In addition, converts to the faith get baptized... clearly their parents were not Catholic.
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| Posted 1/16/08 7:00 PM |
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neenie
Member since 5/05 22351 total posts
Name:
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
Posted by donegal419
those were the old antiquated rules... Parents can baptize babies even if they are not Catholic, if that is what they want for their children. In addition, converts to the faith get baptized... clearly their parents were not Catholic.
oh, they've definitely moved forward in many ways (eventhough many of us will still think that some of their beliefs are outdated). DH was able to be godfather and get married in the church, eventhough he was never confirmed. 20 or so years ago, that wouldn't have been an option. And, for a religion that has had these beliefs ingrained for sooooooooo many years, it's easier to accept their thought process and take it with a grain of salt (if it differs from your own), than to try to change it.
I disagree with their stance on gay marriage, but i accept that it goes against their belief system, so i don't try to change that. What i do have a problem with though is the Government's stance on it- b/c it is based purely on religious reasoning, and there's *supposed* to be separation of church and state. I don't expect the church to say that the union is recognized by God, but i DO think it should be recognized by the state- one has (ideally) nothing to do with the other.
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| Posted 1/16/08 7:07 PM |
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Arieschick29
aries+cancer= pisces&gemini
Member since 3/06 4268 total posts
Name:
Jen
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
I disagree with almost everything the Catholic church does/says/ believes.
When I married DH (Lutheran) I was tol dif I didnt raise our children as Catholic then I would be ex-communicated.... so you're telling me I have to "sell" my children to your faith in order to marry the one person God has sent to me to be my life partner???? 
Also on my  list:
Gay marriage (gay lifestyle in general)
Female Priests
Pro-choice
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| Posted 1/16/08 7:15 PM |
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DirtyBlonde
*****
Member since 11/07 7344 total posts
Name:
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
Disagree with it entirely.
NOT because it's "inconvenient" for me and how I live my life --
I am lucky to have never had to face the decision as to whether or not to have an abortion, yet I believe that it should be a choice.
I have never wanted to be a priest, but if other women aspire to be one, they should be able to realize that goal.
I don't have IVF issues, but that should NOT be frowned upon by the church. Same with BC.
I'm not gay, but I believe that everyone should have the right to get married and have that union recognized across the board.
Good thing I'm diligently searching for something new. 
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| Posted 1/16/08 7:25 PM |
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mcl916
my two loves
Member since 10/06 5133 total posts
Name:
Megan
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
Posted by QuoteTheRaven424
well i do disagree with this - we required science, so i guess we went against the church
oh well...
and a BIG pet peeve of mine are people who get PG through artificial means, who believe in God, yet discount God's role in making the miracle happen.
They're like "God didn't get you PG - science did"
I'm sorry - but I firmly believe that God puts everyone here for a reason, even if it's to set a horrible example.
And in that vain, he put the specialists and the RE's on this earth and gave them the talent to take the knowledge on infertility and help people get PG.
THANK YOU
I absolutely believe God has been involved in this process. I have grown and learned a lot about not taking the miracle of life for granted. But I will never believe He did not want me to have children and that is why there are RE's in my world.
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| Posted 1/16/08 8:10 PM |
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browneyedgirl
family is all that matters
Member since 6/06 6513 total posts
Name:
browneyes
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
i disagree with just about all of their stances.
abortion, gay issues, premarital sex, IVF, priests not getting married, their approach to the church scandals, birth control, strictness of attending church to be a "good catholic", and so much more.
i have purposely distanced myself from the church and will teach my child MY views, not that of a church that, IMO, is not in the current century (no flames, it's my HO)
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| Posted 1/16/08 8:47 PM |
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lucyloo
nope
Member since 1/06 9758 total posts
Name:
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
Posted by donegal419
I empathize with your difficulty in getting pregnant. The Church disagrees with IVF for both the unused embryos reason as well as the fact that your baby is not being conceived NATURALLY. you and your husband require SCIENCE to intervene, and so it is not a 100% natural process. the humans take the control and not God.
So you agree with the churches stand on IVF?
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| Posted 1/16/08 8:48 PM |
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mcl916
my two loves
Member since 10/06 5133 total posts
Name:
Megan
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
Posted by dita
Posted by donegal419
I empathize with your difficulty in getting pregnant. The Church disagrees with IVF for both the unused embryos reason as well as the fact that your baby is not being conceived NATURALLY. you and your husband require SCIENCE to intervene, and so it is not a 100% natural process. the humans take the control and not God.
So you agree with the churches stand on IVF?
Yes, if you read her previous posts she does not believe we should be interefering. According to the Catholic Church I should have adopted instead of trying IVF.
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| Posted 1/16/08 8:51 PM |
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lucyloo
nope
Member since 1/06 9758 total posts
Name:
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
Posted by mcl916
Posted by dita
Posted by donegal419
I empathize with your difficulty in getting pregnant. The Church disagrees with IVF for both the unused embryos reason as well as the fact that your baby is not being conceived NATURALLY. you and your husband require SCIENCE to intervene, and so it is not a 100% natural process. the humans take the control and not God.
So you agree with the churches stand on IVF?
Yes, if you read her previous posts she does not believe we should be interefering. According to the Catholic Church I should have adopted instead of trying IVF.
That's what I thought she was saying. I'm in shock someone would actually believe that was right. I thought I must have misread. 
That is insane.
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| Posted 1/16/08 8:56 PM |
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DandN
Twins are here!
Member since 3/06 3597 total posts
Name:
Deirdre
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Re: Catholics - What do you disagree with the church about?
Posted by donegal419
As my mother says, "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." Life isn't always easy and I believe it is with God's grace that we get through.
Your mother is quoting Friedrich Nietzsche, who, ironically, also said "God is dead."
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| Posted 1/16/08 9:03 PM |
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