| Posted By |
Message |
| Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 |
|
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
I've paid since daycare and my oldest is in 11th grade.
Not many are free.
|
Posted 10/17/14 11:53 AM  |
| |
|
Long Island Weddings
Long Island's Largest Bridal Resource |
nrthshgrl
It goes fast. Pay attention.
Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by nrthshgrl
We used to have to pay for field trips but recently our district is paying for the little ones (farms, museums, etc). I was told it had to do with a state law that a parent complained about.
But the big trips with the overnight stays, we are supposed to pay.
A parent actually complained about paying for their own child to take a trip?? 
The world we live in today. 
Actually it was based on some law in New York State (trying to find it). Think about it - your school taxes go to educate your child - which includes educational field trips. Some districts rarely go on field trips & part of that is because they use the expenditures towards other things. It recently came out that Northport-East Northport School district had a $39 million surplus that was buried in the books. The community pays a lot in school taxes - I don't think it's unreasonable.
For the record, I'm the parent that complained but I understood what they were getting at.
|
| Posted 10/17/14 12:06 PM |
| |
|
Kitten1929
LIF Adult
Member since 1/13 6040 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by nrthshgrl
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by nrthshgrl
We used to have to pay for field trips but recently our district is paying for the little ones (farms, museums, etc). I was told it had to do with a state law that a parent complained about.
But the big trips with the overnight stays, we are supposed to pay.
A parent actually complained about paying for their own child to take a trip??
The world we live in today.
Actually it was based on some law in New York State (trying to find it). Think about it - your school taxes go to educate your child - which includes educational field trips. Some districts rarely go on field trips & part of that is because they use the expenditures towards other things. It recently came out that Northport-East Northport School district had a $39 million surplus that was buried in the books. The community pays a lot in school taxes - I don't think it's unreasonable.
For the record, I'm the parent that complained but I understood what they were getting at.
$39 million buried in the books? How does that happen?
|
| Posted 10/17/14 12:08 PM |
| |
|
nrthshgrl
It goes fast. Pay attention.
Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by Kitten1929
Posted by nrthshgrl
Actually it was based on some law in New York State (trying to find it). Think about it - your school taxes go to educate your child - which includes educational field trips. Some districts rarely go on field trips & part of that is because they use the expenditures towards other things. It recently came out that Northport-East Northport School district had a $39 million surplus that was buried in the books. The community pays a lot in school taxes - I don't think it's unreasonable.
For the record, I'm the parent that complained but I understood what they were getting at.
$39 million buried in the books? How does that happen?
We're all wondering the same thing. I was told the Board of Ed meeting was a screaming match.
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/northport-e-northport-school-board-holds-special-meeting-about-state-audit-1.9508062
http://www.northshoreoflongisland.com/Articles-News-i-2014-10-16-100718.112114-sub-Residents-criticize-Northport-school-district-over-state-audit-findings.html
|
| Posted 10/17/14 12:34 PM |
| |
|
|
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Maybe not the same thing, but DH is a teacher and coach. He has, on many occasions, purchased sweatshirts, warm up gear, and optional parts of uniforms for his players, esp if he knows there are hardships. Not to mention many bagel/pizza parties at the beginning/endings of seasons for which he fully foots the bill.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are teachers that do this for their students when it comes to field trips.
|
| Posted 10/17/14 12:36 PM |
| |
|
Hofstra26
Love to Bake!
Member since 7/06 27915 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by nrthshgrl
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by nrthshgrl
We used to have to pay for field trips but recently our district is paying for the little ones (farms, museums, etc). I was told it had to do with a state law that a parent complained about.
But the big trips with the overnight stays, we are supposed to pay.
A parent actually complained about paying for their own child to take a trip??
The world we live in today.
Actually it was based on some law in New York State (trying to find it). Think about it - your school taxes go to educate your child - which includes educational field trips. Some districts rarely go on field trips & part of that is because they use the expenditures towards other things. It recently came out that Northport-East Northport School district had a $39 million surplus that was buried in the books. The community pays a lot in school taxes - I don't think it's unreasonable.
For the record, I'm the parent that complained but I understood what they were getting at.
$39 million SURPLUS!?!?!  That is ridiculous!!!
|
| Posted 10/17/14 12:36 PM |
| |
|
Katareen
5,000 Posts!
Member since 4/10 7180 total posts
Name:
Katherine
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by nrthshgrl
We used to have to pay for field trips but recently our district is paying for the little ones (farms, museums, etc). I was told it had to do with a state law that a parent complained about.
But the big trips with the overnight stays, we are supposed to pay.
A parent actually complained about paying for their own child to take a trip??
The world we live in today.
There are some families who simply can't afford it, so I don't think its an absurd complaint. Especially if there are funds bookmarked to cover this (which it seems there are).
|
| Posted 10/17/14 12:55 PM |
| |
|
Hofstra26
Love to Bake!
Member since 7/06 27915 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by Katareen
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by nrthshgrl
We used to have to pay for field trips but recently our district is paying for the little ones (farms, museums, etc). I was told it had to do with a state law that a parent complained about.
But the big trips with the overnight stays, we are supposed to pay.
A parent actually complained about paying for their own child to take a trip??
The world we live in today.
There are some families who simply can't afford it, so I don't think its an absurd complaint. Especially if there are funds bookmarked to cover this (which it seems there are).
If there are funds bookmarked for field trips, great. Usually that isn't the case, at least in the schools I both went to AND taught in.
I understand some people can't afford much but *most* times field trips are only a couple of bucks (especially at the elementary level) and I feel that most people can find a few bucks somewhere in their budget to cover that cost.
Not to sound harsh, but kids cost money. They need money for new clothes every year, school supplies, medical care, school activities, etc. I'm not made of money myself but you have to find a way to budget for the things your child needs, it is your responsibility as a parent.
|
| Posted 10/17/14 1:01 PM |
| |
|
Sash
Peace
Member since 6/08 10314 total posts
Name:
fka LIW Smara
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by Katareen
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by nrthshgrl
We used to have to pay for field trips but recently our district is paying for the little ones (farms, museums, etc). I was told it had to do with a state law that a parent complained about.
But the big trips with the overnight stays, we are supposed to pay.
A parent actually complained about paying for their own child to take a trip??
The world we live in today.
There are some families who simply can't afford it, so I don't think its an absurd complaint. Especially if there are funds bookmarked to cover this (which it seems there are).
If there are funds bookmarked for field trips, great. Usually that isn't the case, at least in the schools I both went to AND taught in.
I understand some people can't afford much but *most* times field trips are only a couple of bucks (especially at the elementary level) and I feel that most people can find a few bucks somewhere in their budget to cover that cost.
Not to sound harsh, but kids cost money. They need money for new clothes every year, school supplies, medical care, school activities, etc. I'm not made of money myself but you have to find a way to budget for the things your child needs, it is your responsibility as a parent.
I guess depends on the situation but some parents can't afford it. I remember paying for trips too when I was a child. My mother would be able to scrape up the 5 bucks. However, there were times she couldn't afford it. If that was the case I stood home with her or went to school and sat in another class. She would have never complained to the school about it because it was her situation.
The only school I ever saw that didnt require money for trips was my nieces daycare/pre-k, but that school was ridiculously expensive. My DS's school asked for 20 bucks last year for a field trip to the Bronx zoo  Every week they are hitting me up for money for something.
Message edited 10/17/2014 1:15:07 PM.
|
| Posted 10/17/14 1:14 PM |
| |
|
|
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by Hofstra26
Not to sound harsh, but kids cost money. They need money for new clothes every year, school supplies, medical care, school activities, etc. I'm not made of money myself but you have to find a way to budget for the things your child needs, it is your responsibility as a parent.
You know what....I'm a single mom, I have a deadbeat ex, he pays no child support. When I had my son, we had two incomes. Now I support him on mine alone. It is HARD to do.
Sometimes people fall on hard times, or situations change. I have been lucky that I have not had to look to other forms of help (YET) but my son's teacher has let me pay late for a field trip ($15) because I didn't have it when it was due because of these circumstances.
|
| Posted 10/17/14 1:18 PM |
| |
|
jellybean78
:)
Member since 8/06 13103 total posts
Name:
Mommy
|
Paying for a field trip?
Yep we pay for all the school trips
|
| Posted 10/17/14 1:26 PM |
| |
|
CookiePuss
Cake from Outer Space!
Member since 5/05 14021 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
What is really unfortunate is that is some part of NY, the community supports the districts so much that it can afford to provide trips at no cost, sports at no cost, extended care and camp at a ridiculously low cost but here...nada...
|
| Posted 10/17/14 1:30 PM |
| |
|
Hofstra26
Love to Bake!
Member since 7/06 27915 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by Straightarrow
Posted by Hofstra26
Not to sound harsh, but kids cost money. They need money for new clothes every year, school supplies, medical care, school activities, etc. I'm not made of money myself but you have to find a way to budget for the things your child needs, it is your responsibility as a parent.
You know what....I'm a single mom, I have a deadbeat ex, he pays no child support. When I had my son, we had two incomes. Now I support him on mine alone. It is HARD to do.
Sometimes people fall on hard times, or situations change. I have been lucky that I have not had to look to other forms of help (YET) but my son's teacher has let me pay late for a field trip ($15) because I didn't have it when it was due because of these circumstances.
I understand that, I never said financially caring for kids was an EASY thing to do, it's not. They always need something and along with what they need you also need money for ten thousand other things as well..........debt, bills, food, etc.
But ultimately, as parents, we have to just figure out how to manage it all and somehow make it work because we don't have much of a choice.
My son was hospitalized with pneumonia earlier this year, two days in the hospital cost me OVER $6K out of pocket and that was WITH insurance. I wasn't banking on that expense but we had to figure it out. It's just how life goes. If your kids need money for something whether it be a field trip, or medical care, or clothes, or anything else somehow you just have to find a way. And it's NOT easy all of the time.
Message edited 10/17/2014 1:52:20 PM.
|
| Posted 10/17/14 1:51 PM |
| |
|
Pray4Baby2010
<3 Cutest Giants Fan
Member since 10/09 5796 total posts
Name:
MB
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by Straightarrow
Posted by Hofstra26
Not to sound harsh, but kids cost money. They need money for new clothes every year, school supplies, medical care, school activities, etc. I'm not made of money myself but you have to find a way to budget for the things your child needs, it is your responsibility as a parent.
You know what....I'm a single mom, I have a deadbeat ex, he pays no child support. When I had my son, we had two incomes. Now I support him on mine alone. It is HARD to do.
Sometimes people fall on hard times, or situations change. I have been lucky that I have not had to look to other forms of help (YET) but my son's teacher has let me pay late for a field trip ($15) because I didn't have it when it was due because of these circumstances.
I understand that, I never said financially caring for kids was an EASY thing to do, it's not. They always need something and along with what they need you also need money for ten thousand other things as well..........debt, bills, food, etc.
But ultimately, as parents, we have to just figure out how to manage it all and somehow make it work because we don't have much of a choice.
My son was hospitalized with pneumonia earlier this year, two days in the hospital cost me OVER $6K out of pocket and that was WITH insurance. I wasn't banking on that expense but we had to figure it out. It's just how life goes. If your kids need money for something whether it be a field trip, or medical care, or clothes, or anything else somehow you just have to find a way. And it's NOT easy all of the time.
Sorry but I constantly see your responses to things like this and am just shocked. Maybe you don't realize how it comes off.
There are children in this country that go to bed hungry every night. Hungry. That's how seriously financially wrecked their family is. Its just awful and so horribly sad.
So for many families, a field trip is not necessity and CAN NOT be a necessity- they are much more worried about making rent and getting some food on the table.
That's how my dh grew up- child of a single parent when my MIL was widowed at the age of 25.
I consider my family lucky and blessed that we don't have to make that decision- but I'd never look down my nose and think another parent wasnt doing the best they could because they couldnt afford a field trip.
|
| Posted 10/17/14 1:58 PM |
| |
|
Katareen
5,000 Posts!
Member since 4/10 7180 total posts
Name:
Katherine
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by Straightarrow
Posted by Hofstra26
Not to sound harsh, but kids cost money. They need money for new clothes every year, school supplies, medical care, school activities, etc. I'm not made of money myself but you have to find a way to budget for the things your child needs, it is your responsibility as a parent.
You know what....I'm a single mom, I have a deadbeat ex, he pays no child support. When I had my son, we had two incomes. Now I support him on mine alone. It is HARD to do.
Sometimes people fall on hard times, or situations change. I have been lucky that I have not had to look to other forms of help (YET) but my son's teacher has let me pay late for a field trip ($15) because I didn't have it when it was due because of these circumstances.
I understand that, I never said financially caring for kids was an EASY thing to do, it's not. They always need something and along with what they need you also need money for ten thousand other things as well..........debt, bills, food, etc.
But ultimately, as parents, we have to just figure out how to manage it all and somehow make it work because we don't have much of a choice.
My son was hospitalized with pneumonia earlier this year, two days in the hospital cost me OVER $6K out of pocket and that was WITH insurance. I wasn't banking on that expense but we had to figure it out. It's just how life goes. If your kids need money for something whether it be a field trip, or medical care, or clothes, or anything else somehow you just have to find a way. And it's NOT easy all of the time.
And if there was a law stating that your insurance HAD to cover that expense, wouldn't you fight to get it paid for? And hope that people weren't rolling their eyes at you saying that you should suck it up because "kids cost money"??
There ARE families that live paycheck to paycheck to the penny...and $10 could send their child on a field trip OR put breakfast on the table for a week.
|
| Posted 10/17/14 2:04 PM |
| |
|
Hofstra26
Love to Bake!
Member since 7/06 27915 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by Pray4Baby2010
Sorry but I constantly see your responses to things like this and am just shocked. Maybe you don't realize how it comes off.
Responses to things like what exactly? And shocked? Why exactly?
Look, the reality of life and of having children is that it all costs money. Saying it out loud does not make anyone insensitive, it's just a fact of the world we live in.
I 1000% understand some people have it EXTREMELY rough and a field trip isn't a priority but the only point I was making is that we're all responsible for our own children. As parents, they are our financial burden to bear and all you can count on is yourself.
We're getting away from the original post here but in the case of this thread and a school field trip, maybe you will luck out and a school would cover the cost but if that burden is on you and you can't do it, you just have to figure something it out whether it be coming up with the money (hard as that may be) OR just not having your child participate. That's all.
ETA - This doesn't need to be an argument, what are we arguing over?? Do kids NOT cost money because if that's the case someone didn't give me the memo because I spend most of our money on mine! 
Message edited 10/17/2014 2:11:27 PM.
|
| Posted 10/17/14 2:07 PM |
| |
|
Hofstra26
Love to Bake!
Member since 7/06 27915 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by Katareen
And if there was a law stating that your insurance HAD to cover that expense, wouldn't you fight to get it paid for? And hope that people weren't rolling their eyes at you saying that you should suck it up because "kids cost money"??
If there was a law, sure. Of course.
But is there an ACTUAL law that says a school HAS to pay for field trips? If not, then as a parent it's your responsibility. And since most schools MAKE you cover the cost I would assume such a law doesn't really exist or there is some loophole to it.
|
| Posted 10/17/14 2:09 PM |
| |
|
Pray4Baby2010
<3 Cutest Giants Fan
Member since 10/09 5796 total posts
Name:
MB
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by Pray4Baby2010
Sorry but I constantly see your responses to things like this and am just shocked. Maybe you don't realize how it comes off.
Responses to things like what exactly? And shocked? Why exactly?
Look, the reality of life and of having children is that it all costs money. Saying it out loud does not make anyone insensitive, it's just a fact of the world we live in.
I 1000% understand some people have it EXTREMELY rough and a field trip isn't a priority but the only point I was making is that we're all responsible for our own children. As parents, they are our financial burden to bear and all you can count on is yourself.
We're getting away from the original post here but in the case of this thread and a school field trip, maybe you will luck out and a school would cover the cost but if that burden is on you and you can't do it, you just have to figure something it out whether it be coming up with the money (hard as that may be) OR just not having your child participate. That's all.
Well I guess, I'd rather consider myself blessed and lucky than think that I am a better parent than someone else because they are struggling.
that's how your comments come off to me- that you think you are better because you have a certain lifestyle.
|
| Posted 10/17/14 2:10 PM |
| |
|
limomof2
LIF Adolescent
Member since 1/13 845 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
I don't think my kids have ever gone on a "free" field trip. Forget it if there is a bus involved, then it gets expensive.
|
| Posted 10/17/14 2:13 PM |
| |
|
Hofstra26
Love to Bake!
Member since 7/06 27915 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by Pray4Baby2010
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by Pray4Baby2010
Sorry but I constantly see your responses to things like this and am just shocked. Maybe you don't realize how it comes off.
Responses to things like what exactly? And shocked? Why exactly?
Look, the reality of life and of having children is that it all costs money. Saying it out loud does not make anyone insensitive, it's just a fact of the world we live in.
I 1000% understand some people have it EXTREMELY rough and a field trip isn't a priority but the only point I was making is that we're all responsible for our own children. As parents, they are our financial burden to bear and all you can count on is yourself.
We're getting away from the original post here but in the case of this thread and a school field trip, maybe you will luck out and a school would cover the cost but if that burden is on you and you can't do it, you just have to figure something it out whether it be coming up with the money (hard as that may be) OR just not having your child participate. That's all.
Well I guess, I'd rather consider myself blessed and lucky than think that I am a better parent than someone else because they are struggling.
that's how your comments come off to me- that you think you are better because you have a certain lifestyle.
Then you're reading WAY too much into anything I've written. I'm so tired on LIF of the VERY overplayed comment of "I guess you're perfect, I guess you're a better parent". NOWHERE did I say that OR even imply it.
I don't think I'm better than anyone, I'm not rolling in money, and YOU have NO idea what financial struggles I have been through or where I am now in my life. I'm VERY blessed and thankful to have whatever I have, as are you.
I'm NOT insulting anyone who is struggling so let's not twist anything and make it seem that way. Struggling or not, raising children is an expensive endeavor. To be insulted by that fact is just ridiculous and that was all I was saying.
Nothing more to say to you on the topic. Please refrain from making assumptions on my "lifestyle" when you have absolutely NO facts or information to even support that comment.
Message edited 10/17/2014 2:16:35 PM.
|
| Posted 10/17/14 2:15 PM |
| |
|
Katareen
5,000 Posts!
Member since 4/10 7180 total posts
Name:
Katherine
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by Katareen
And if there was a law stating that your insurance HAD to cover that expense, wouldn't you fight to get it paid for? And hope that people weren't rolling their eyes at you saying that you should suck it up because "kids cost money"??
If there was a law, sure. Of course.
But is there an ACTUAL law that says a school HAS to pay for field trips? If not, then as a parent it's your responsibility. And since most schools MAKE you cover the cost I would assume such a law doesn't really exist or there is some loophole to it.
Based on what nrthshgrl posted, I think maybe there is.
And I don't care if I'm a millionaire--if there is a $35million tax surplus, my district damn well better pay for field trips, or significantly lower my taxes!
|
| Posted 10/17/14 2:15 PM |
| |
|
Hofstra26
Love to Bake!
Member since 7/06 27915 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by Katareen
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by Katareen
And if there was a law stating that your insurance HAD to cover that expense, wouldn't you fight to get it paid for? And hope that people weren't rolling their eyes at you saying that you should suck it up because "kids cost money"??
If there was a law, sure. Of course.
But is there an ACTUAL law that says a school HAS to pay for field trips? If not, then as a parent it's your responsibility. And since most schools MAKE you cover the cost I would assume such a law doesn't really exist or there is some loophole to it.
Based on what nrthshgrl posted, I think maybe there is.
And I don't care if I'm a millionaire--if there is a $35million tax surplus, my district damn well better pay for field trips, or significantly lower my taxes!
Perhaps there is something but there must be some reason why across all districts it's not being adhered too because I really, in all honesty, have not come across schools that fund the field trips.
But I agree, a $35 million surplus is absurd. Where is all that money hiding???
|
| Posted 10/17/14 2:18 PM |
| |
|
nrthshgrl
It goes fast. Pay attention.
Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by Hofstra26
But I agree, a $35 million surplus is absurd. Where is all that money hiding???
Yup & the high school was told they didn't have money to replace musical instruments that need replacing. IN SEPTEMBER.
Maybe they can provide proper supplies for the classrooms so the teachers & the parents don't have to buy them.
I was reviewing the school board notes on the district sites during my con call & discovered that they just hired a PR firm to represent the district. It's part of the superintendents job to handle PR - actually written into the job description but now we're paying a firm to do it. Why not lobby to hire a PR person because I'm sure this firm is getting a lot more money than we think. I really need to go to Board meetings. Shame on me.
--------------
I'm searching for the field trip cost thing & why our district started paying from the local field trips.
|
| Posted 10/17/14 2:35 PM |
| |
|
|
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by Pray4Baby2010
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by Pray4Baby2010
Sorry but I constantly see your responses to things like this and am just shocked. Maybe you don't realize how it comes off.
Responses to things like what exactly? And shocked? Why exactly?
Look, the reality of life and of having children is that it all costs money. Saying it out loud does not make anyone insensitive, it's just a fact of the world we live in.
I 1000% understand some people have it EXTREMELY rough and a field trip isn't a priority but the only point I was making is that we're all responsible for our own children. As parents, they are our financial burden to bear and all you can count on is yourself.
We're getting away from the original post here but in the case of this thread and a school field trip, maybe you will luck out and a school would cover the cost but if that burden is on you and you can't do it, you just have to figure something it out whether it be coming up with the money (hard as that may be) OR just not having your child participate. That's all.
Well I guess, I'd rather consider myself blessed and lucky than think that I am a better parent than someone else because they are struggling.
that's how your comments come off to me- that you think you are better because you have a certain lifestyle.
I think what I take issue to is this ^, OF COURSE I know that children cost money, and OF COURSE I make sacrifices so my child CAN have everything he needs, including field trips.
But life can change very quickly. And unfortunately families that were once comfortable are struggling now.
PS- I have no issue paying for field trips.
|
| Posted 10/17/14 2:40 PM |
| |
|
Kitten1929
LIF Adult
Member since 1/13 6040 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Paying for a field trip?
Posted by nrthshgrl
Posted by Hofstra26
But I agree, a $35 million surplus is absurd. Where is all that money hiding???
Yup & the high school was told they didn't have money to replace musical instruments that need replacing. IN SEPTEMBER.
Maybe they can provide proper supplies for the classrooms so the teachers & the parents don't have to buy them.
I was reviewing the school board notes on the district sites during my con call & discovered that they just hired a PR firm to represent the district. It's part of the superintendents job to handle PR - actually written into the job description but now we're paying a firm to do it. Why not lobby to hire a PR person because I'm sure this firm is getting a lot more money than we think. I really need to go to Board meetings. Shame on me.
--------------
I'm searching for the field trip cost thing & why our district started paying from the local field trips.
This smells beyond fishy - an extra couple thousand, even hundred thousand, you can account for and say it was earmarked for a project that never happened, etc. But $39 million is an astronomical amount of money to have "hidden" and quite honestly, given the improprieties of some elected officials, I'd be more than skeptical.
|
| Posted 10/17/14 2:41 PM |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 |
