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What is the point of tenure?
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THUMPER
LIF Adolescent
Member since 5/05 509 total posts
Name:
Laurie
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
NYC Tenure is not a given, but once they have it some teachers become lax and that affects our children. I know of one situation where a tenured teacher and I mean 20 plus years on job, was a horrible teacher and REFUSED to leave. Took them having to find something , grabbing a child on line to finally have her removed to District Office for 2 years on full pay, before they finally could force her out.
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Posted 9/21/10 10:02 AM  |
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Goldi0218
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Leslie
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
FYI - semi related. The DOE rubber rooms no longer exist. Though not all of the formerly "temporarily re-assigned" teachers are not in the classrooms, they are also NOT sitting on their butts doing nothing. Either they have been terminated, returned to the classroom under stipulations or they are working in administrative capacities until their cases/hearings are heard and processed. But they are no longer in empty rooms collecting salaries doing nothing. Some of their "offenses" are serious and some are laughable but all are punishable on some level or another.
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| Posted 9/21/10 10:47 AM |
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nrthshgrl
It goes fast. Pay attention.
Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by MrsProfessor
Without tenure, most teachers are one crazy parent, student or administrator away from being fired. Seriously. It entitles us to due process, not a job for life. I know of a couple teachers who were removed from the classroom, so it's not impossible.
I didn't see Oprah. However, as I said over on the teacher board, she drank the charter school kool-aid. It is very easy to think that charters are the answer.
There is a LOT of hedge fund money involved, along with hedge funders who know little about education. They just want an end to unions. Charters have amazing spin/PR machines. This is why many people don't know that:
- most of them don't take kids with special needs, or kids who are ELLs, or they take a percentage that is not comparable to a TPS (traditional public school). This helps their scores look better.
- they require a substantial parent commitment, making them sign contracts, etc. that their child will be in school, be on time, do the work, etc. However, most charters discourage parent associations, and I know of one, Uncommon Schools, that does not allow any parent participation.
- they "counsel out" kids who are struggling, kids who may not score well on the tests. Some charters in NYC turn over up to 30% of kids from year to year. At least one school that boasted a 100% pass/graduation rate got caught transferring kids to the local TPS just prior to the tests.
It is very easy to point to teachers as being the main cause of the problem, along with tenure, etc. Obama's even doing it, which has really disappointed me (but I don't think McCain would have been better.) It's also interesting you seldom hear from an actual teacher about what will improve education in this country. It's always pundits, politicians, media personalities, etc. I'm not saying that we all have a stake- but contrary to what seems to be popular opinion at the moment, most teachers are 1) smart 2) committed to helping kids and 3) in need of a lot more support than we get- from everyone.
I agree 1000% with what you said.
There are good teachers & there are bad teachers just as there are parents & students in the same category.
I would hate to see a teacher fired on a trumped up charge from a teenagers -without due process. I think the misconception is it doesn't guarantee a job - it guarantees certain steps will be taken as they walk a bad teacher to the door. Maybe the "steps" are too many & take too much effort but there needs to be some security there. I've seen parents badmouth teachers - in one case a teacher that I had nothing but amazing things to say about (
This Teacher). Imagine if someone like that would have been excessed because a parent complained about unfair treatment!
I've seen it first hand how a Catholic school railroads kids out with any kind of behavior or learning disability. In my opinion, they are not equipped to handle any situation out of the norm. I don't know how it works with charter schools.
edited to add:
There are a lot of contributing factors to the failure of the school system. It is NOT tenure. Parenting, poverty, drugs...yes. Tenure...not really. Imagine trying to lure teachers into the worst neighborhoods to teach. I think things are very skewed economically - if anything those teachers should be paid MORE.
Message edited 9/21/2010 3:20:35 PM.
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| Posted 9/21/10 11:05 AM |
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ChrisDee
My Girls
Member since 11/06 9543 total posts
Name:
Christine
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by MrsYank
Posted by ChrisDee
First of all, lots of us work with the public and could be one crazy parent, or client or customer away from losing our job. However if you have a good track record, why would you lose your job over that "one" crazy parent. If you do a good job and your employer/principal is happy with you, isn't that enough protection? Teachers have a union, does that not give them a level of due process in and of itself?
Here is a good example, there is a teacher in DD's school who is a seemingly very nice man. However, he suffers badly from Parkinsons. He is certainly old enough to retire. I would guess he is in his mid to late 60's. He has become unable to perform his job to the degree that parents and the Principal wants, and the kids deserve. He has been offered an incentive to retire but refuses. He now has an aide in his classroom to help. In the words of the Principal, " her hands are tied". So many parents request that their kids NOT be in his class that the other classes in the grade are jam packed and he has a smaller class. The kids that wind up in his class are the kids whose parents are totally uninvloved or don't speak english. It just does not seem right to me. And don't get me wrong, I feel terribly for this man and I am not even opposed to keeping him, but not in a classroom setting. But he is untouchable. Why, if the kids are suffering?
I understand what you are saying- but let's pretend he wasn't a teacher. Wouldn't firing him be considered discrimination? Playing devil's advocate of course..
I do not think offering financial compensation to retire early is the same as firing him. Nor do I think he should be fired. I think a job in a non classroom setting for the same pay would a be great compromise.
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| Posted 9/21/10 1:03 PM |
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ChrisDee
My Girls
Member since 11/06 9543 total posts
Name:
Christine
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by computergirl
Posted by MrsYank
Posted by ChrisDee
Here is a good example, there is a teacher in DD's school who is a seemingly very nice man. However, he suffers badly from Parkinsons. He is certainly old enough to retire. I would guess he is in his mid to late 60's.
I understand what you are saying- but let's pretend he wasn't a teacher. Wouldn't firing him be considered discrimination? Playing devil's advocate of course..
As a parent, I totally agree that this teacher shouldn't be teaching anymore. But ITA about the possible discrimination charges. Between his age and his health problem, you can just smell the lawsuit coming, kwim? I understand why the principal has to protect herself.
I think if they offer him financial compensation to retire early it is fair or move him to a non classroom setting.
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| Posted 9/21/10 1:05 PM |
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ChrisDee
My Girls
Member since 11/06 9543 total posts
Name:
Christine
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by Katareen
Posted by computergirl
Posted by MrsYank
Posted by ChrisDee
Here is a good example, there is a teacher in DD's school who is a seemingly very nice man. However, he suffers badly from Parkinsons. He is certainly old enough to retire. I would guess he is in his mid to late 60's.
I understand what you are saying- but let's pretend he wasn't a teacher. Wouldn't firing him be considered discrimination? Playing devil's advocate of course..
As a parent, I totally agree that this teacher shouldn't be teaching anymore. But ITA about the possible discrimination charges. Between his age and his health problem, you can just smell the lawsuit coming, kwim? I understand why the principal has to protect herself.
What grade is this? Are the students moving onto the next grade with the skills required to succeed?
If not I don't care how old, young, ill, healthy, large paycheck, small paycheck--if you are not able to do your job and do it well, you should be out!
This is 5th grade and my daughter has not had him(and won't) but a few of my friend's kids Have. He is very hard to understand because his speech is effected and he can hardly hold his head up.(I have had multiple conversations with him because of my involvement up at school) His writing ability is also effected. In the opinion of those that I know who have had him they do believe it has negatively effected the learning process in his class.
Again, I do not think he should be fired, he is a very nice hard working man in a very unfortunate situation. However, it can not be at the cost of the kids education.
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| Posted 9/21/10 1:13 PM |
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nrthshgrl
It goes fast. Pay attention.
Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
Name:
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by ChrisDee
This is 5th grade and my daughter has not had him(and won't) but a few of my friend's kids Have. He is very hard to understand because his speech is effected and he can hardly hold his head up.(I have had multiple conversations with him because of my involvement up at school) His writing ability is also effected. In the opinion of those that I know who have had him they do believe it has negatively effected the learning process in his class.
Again, I do not think he should be fired, he is a very nice hard working man in a very unfortunate situation. However, it can not be at the cost of the kids education.
Firing someone because they have Parkinson's is discrimination - unless they cannot do the essentials of the job. Speaking is a huge part of his job - he shouldn't be offered incentive to retire. In the private sector, he would likely be evaluated by a physician - even if it came at the request of the HR department - and that physician should determine if he qualifies for disability. Then he'd go out on disability, followed by long term disability.
He can be taken out of his job - but again there is a process. It sounds like your principal is presently accomodating the disability by giving him an aide - which is step in the process.
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| Posted 9/21/10 1:40 PM |
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blondiebabyZ
Ohhhh yeaaahh!!
Member since 6/10 1033 total posts
Name:
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
I agree with tenure to an extent. Its great to keep amazing teachers, but its bad because it also keeps the lazy teachers who do not deserve the job they have when a more qualified person can be in that position.
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| Posted 9/21/10 2:16 PM |
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
I think many people also need to let of go of the ideas that young/new automatically means energetic, talented, smart and older/experienced means lazy, uncaring and burnt out. I work with people who've been at it for 25+ years and are wonderful. I have worked with newer teachers who though that they sh!t ice cream but couldn't control a class. As Barb correctly pointed out, tenure isn't the problem in many schools- the state of the communities, parenting, etc. are. And there are a whole host of changes (which I don't have time to detail now but I will if anyone is interested) coming down the pike that will make it harder and harder for urban schools to get and keep good teachers. In fact, in NYC, the higher you get on the salary scale, the more you have a target on your back no matter how good you are. Tenure means very little in NYC anymore. It's unfortunate because good people do get railroaded.
If you're a parent and are unhappy with a teacher, then you need to hold the principal accountable. He/she does have the power to do something. Too often people throw up their hands and say, "well, he/she is tenured so there's no point." That isn't true.
Message edited 9/21/2010 3:17:41 PM.
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| Posted 9/21/10 3:16 PM |
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Otherme
Square head cutie pants
Member since 3/06 6899 total posts
Name:
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by eddiesmommy
I do have to say, I think a lot of us non teachers have trouble understanding it bc we in the untenured professions, we can be fired on whim, are only one phone call away from a client calling and complaining, are on the top of the list when layoffs roll around and they are looking at just salaries and you just become a number, an amount they can save. We can be fired bc of nepotism, we can be fired just bc our boss is an @ss and not bc of how we perform on the job. We can be fired bc how we are evaluated is also subjective. Im not saying one way is right, and one way is wrong, or better or worse, or easier or harder. Im just saying that we maybe have a little harder of a time wrapping our heads around the need for it. For right or wrong.
You took the words right out of my mouth
I have nothing against teachers and think they do an incredibly demanding and unrewarding (sometimes) job.. but the rest of the workforce does not have anything remotely resembling tenure, so it's hard for us to feel sympathetic towards someone who gets a 'free pass' at a job after being somewhere for just 5 years! I feel like tenure is something to be earned and should be a reward for excellent service, not something that's automatic after such a short amount of time. Why isn't it done at 10 years?
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| Posted 9/21/10 3:41 PM |
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Erica
LIF Adult
Member since 5/05 11767 total posts
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by MrsProfessor
I think many people also need to let of go of the ideas that young/new automatically means energetic, talented, smart and older/experienced means lazy, uncaring and burnt out.
YES! I have to say that I work in a high-ranked SD and I have said many times that the teachers are not good, but great or excellent. (and I have worked with some bad teachers in other districts and NYC). The staff is also not on the young side and mostly all tenured. They are always jumping to go to conferences and learn new techniques. There is not one teacher that slacks in my building, in anyway!
And there was a tenured teacher who was fired recently (in another building) - they just needed time to build a case against the teacher.
FWIW, DH's company has been trying to fire two employees fro TWO years now. They are building a case, b/c if they didn't there would be lawsuits thrown around.
A friend of mine works for HR at a large accounting firm and she says that they don't fire, they lay off with a severance package when people are underperforming, for fear of lawsuits.
So it's not so much different in the private world.
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| Posted 9/21/10 4:23 PM |
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MrsYank
She's here :)
Member since 4/07 3238 total posts
Name:
Mrs. Yank
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by Otherme
Posted by eddiesmommy
I do have to say, I think a lot of us non teachers have trouble understanding it bc we in the untenured professions, we can be fired on whim, are only one phone call away from a client calling and complaining, are on the top of the list when layoffs roll around and they are looking at just salaries and you just become a number, an amount they can save. We can be fired bc of nepotism, we can be fired just bc our boss is an @ss and not bc of how we perform on the job. We can be fired bc how we are evaluated is also subjective. Im not saying one way is right, and one way is wrong, or better or worse, or easier or harder. Im just saying that we maybe have a little harder of a time wrapping our heads around the need for it. For right or wrong.
You took the words right out of my mouth
I have nothing against teachers and think they do an incredibly demanding and unrewarding (sometimes) job.. but the rest of the workforce does not have anything remotely resembling tenure, so it's hard for us to feel sympathetic towards someone who gets a 'free pass' at a job after being somewhere for just 5 years! I feel like tenure is something to be earned and should be a reward for excellent service, not something that's automatic after such a short amount of time. Why isn't it done at 10 years?
Again, it's not automatic.
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| Posted 9/21/10 4:45 PM |
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DaisyGirl
LIF Adult
Member since 2/08 1650 total posts
Name:
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by eddiesmommy
Posted by DaisyGirl
My first and only interest is what's best for my students.
I also think that incompetent teachers should be fired. Teachers with tenure can be fired. The administrator just has to prove that they are not fulfilling their contract. Teachers like that give us a bad rep!
I dont think so, at least not to me...Im not lumping, nor do I lump teachers into one category, that no one deserves tenure. Like I said earlier, I think its original purpose was formed with good intent.
I also think there are far more excellent teachers than there are bad, at least in the districts Im familiar with. So I dont think a few bad apples spoil it for the bunch, but I do think they make the inherent flaws in the process of being granted tenure more apparent.
I wasn't directing that comment to you directly- I was speaking generally. Hope it didn't come across that way! I agree with everything you said. The intent is good and it protects good teachers but unfortunately, it makes it harder to get rid of the bad ones. Not impossible, but definitely harder.
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| Posted 9/21/10 6:32 PM |
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MrsSchwags
Soccer Baseball Lax Mom
Member since 10/05 11240 total posts
Name:
Jennifer
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
I am a teacher and I don't agree with tenure.
I was a business teacher for 2 years and was excessed because I was the "low man". The teacher that is there now, has no interest in being there. She doesn't get involved with the students. She doesn't try to do things other than come in teach (sort of) and get a pay check. She told me she is retiring in 4 years and is just waiting until her time comes.
Yes, she has tenure and senority but when you compare us as teachers there is no comparision.
I started a business club, I was getting a business honor society going and trying to get some electives AP/College credit.
Since I left, everything went down the drain.
Is it fair? I don't think so but she has tenure and seniority.
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| Posted 9/21/10 8:06 PM |
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firsttimer
Member since 5/07 1532 total posts
Name:
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by Otherme
Posted by eddiesmommy
I do have to say, I think a lot of us non teachers have trouble understanding it bc we in the untenured professions, we can be fired on whim, are only one phone call away from a client calling and complaining, are on the top of the list when layoffs roll around and they are looking at just salaries and you just become a number, an amount they can save. We can be fired bc of nepotism, we can be fired just bc our boss is an @ss and not bc of how we perform on the job. We can be fired bc how we are evaluated is also subjective. Im not saying one way is right, and one way is wrong, or better or worse, or easier or harder. Im just saying that we maybe have a little harder of a time wrapping our heads around the need for it. For right or wrong.
You took the words right out of my mouth
I have nothing against teachers and think they do an incredibly demanding and unrewarding (sometimes) job.. but the rest of the workforce does not have anything remotely resembling tenure, so it's hard for us to feel sympathetic towards someone who gets a 'free pass' at a job after being somewhere for just 5 years! I feel like tenure is something to be earned and should be a reward for excellent service, not something that's automatic after such a short amount of time. Why isn't it done at 10 years?
Because it is not about a free pass, but rather tenure is about a review process.
Yes there are many jobs in the workforce that are subjected to the whim of a boss. But when you work with children and parents, there is a "danger" involved. A student creates a fabrication about a teacher as a way to revenge a grudge... A parent is personally insulted b/c his or her son didn't make honor society, the football team, the school play, etc and runs a witch-hunt.
Tenure protects teachers from these and OTHER situations. If there are complaints, principals and other administrators review the case and then take action.
That was the intent of tenure; it not "a reward of excellent service."
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| Posted 9/21/10 9:24 PM |
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firsttimer
Member since 5/07 1532 total posts
Name:
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by firsttimer
Posted by Otherme
Posted by eddiesmommy
I do have to say, I think a lot of us non teachers have trouble understanding it bc we in the untenured professions, we can be fired on whim, are only one phone call away from a client calling and complaining, are on the top of the list when layoffs roll around and they are looking at just salaries and you just become a number, an amount they can save. We can be fired bc of nepotism, we can be fired just bc our boss is an @ss and not bc of how we perform on the job. We can be fired bc how we are evaluated is also subjective. Im not saying one way is right, and one way is wrong, or better or worse, or easier or harder. Im just saying that we maybe have a little harder of a time wrapping our heads around the need for it. For right or wrong.
You took the words right out of my mouth
I have nothing against teachers and think they do an incredibly demanding and unrewarding (sometimes) job.. but the rest of the workforce does not have anything remotely resembling tenure, so it's hard for us to feel sympathetic towards someone who gets a 'free pass' at a job after being somewhere for just 5 years! I feel like tenure is something to be earned and should be a reward for excellent service, not something that's automatic after such a short amount of time. Why isn't it done at 10 years?
Because it is not about a free pass, but rather tenure is about a review process.
Yes there are many jobs in the workforce that are subjected to the whim of a boss. But when you work with children and parents, there is a "danger" involved. A student creates a fabrication about a teacher as a way to revenge a grudge... A parent is personally insulted b/c his or her son didn't make honor society, the football team, the school play, etc and runs a witch-hunt.
Tenure protects teachers from these and OTHER situations. If there are complaints, principals and other administrators review the case and then take action.
That was the intent of tenure; it not "a reward of excellent service."
ecause it is not about a free pass, but rather tenure is about a review process.
Yes there are many jobs in the workforce that are subjected to the whim of a boss. But when you work with children and parents, there is a "danger" involved. A student creates a fabrication about a teacher as a way to revenge a grudge... A parent is personally insulted b/c his or her son didn't make honor society, the football team, the school play, etc and runs a witch-hunt.
Tenure protects teachers from these and OTHER situations. If there are complaints, principals and other administrators review the case and then take action.
That was the intent of tenure; it not "a reward of excellent service."
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| Posted 9/21/10 9:24 PM |
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Otherme
Square head cutie pants
Member since 3/06 6899 total posts
Name:
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by firsttimer
Posted by firsttimer
Posted by Otherme
Posted by eddiesmommy
I do have to say, I think a lot of us non teachers have trouble understanding it bc we in the untenured professions, we can be fired on whim, are only one phone call away from a client calling and complaining, are on the top of the list when layoffs roll around and they are looking at just salaries and you just become a number, an amount they can save. We can be fired bc of nepotism, we can be fired just bc our boss is an @ss and not bc of how we perform on the job. We can be fired bc how we are evaluated is also subjective. Im not saying one way is right, and one way is wrong, or better or worse, or easier or harder. Im just saying that we maybe have a little harder of a time wrapping our heads around the need for it. For right or wrong.
You took the words right out of my mouth
I have nothing against teachers and think they do an incredibly demanding and unrewarding (sometimes) job.. but the rest of the workforce does not have anything remotely resembling tenure, so it's hard for us to feel sympathetic towards someone who gets a 'free pass' at a job after being somewhere for just 5 years! I feel like tenure is something to be earned and should be a reward for excellent service, not something that's automatic after such a short amount of time. Why isn't it done at 10 years?
ecause it is not about a free pass, but rather tenure is about a review process.
Yes there are many jobs in the workforce that are subjected to the whim of a boss. But when you work with children and parents, there is a "danger" involved. A student creates a fabrication about a teacher as a way to revenge a grudge... A parent is personally insulted b/c his or her son didn't make honor society, the football team, the school play, etc and runs a witch-hunt.
Tenure protects teachers from these and OTHER situations. If there are complaints, principals and other administrators review the case and then take action.
That was the intent of tenure; it not "a reward of excellent service."
This could happen in any field - a co-worker with a personal grudge could make up a story about someone to get them fired. A vendor who is upset about not getting business can spread rumors about an employee.. etc.
i don't think anyone else has a guaranteed job anywhere, except for teachers.
I understand that something is needed to protect teachers, so if you take away tenure, there should still be a review process for any complaints that has to be followed rather than just firing someone on whim.
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| Posted 9/22/10 11:13 AM |
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nrthshgrl
It goes fast. Pay attention.
Member since 7/05 57538 total posts
Name:
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
In the private sector, it's employment at will There are certain job protections (age discrimination, sexual discrimination, whistleblower protection, etc) in the workplace. For the most part, it's all about how much would you have to pay out in severance or risk a lawsuit & is it worth settling.
Should a review process or procedure be followed in the private sector to combat that?
I see people complain about others getting a benefit that they would cherish if it existed in their own workplace. They may not be anti-tenure, anti-flex time, anti-union if it benefitted or protected them.
Message edited 9/22/2010 11:29:13 AM.
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| Posted 9/22/10 11:25 AM |
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Posted by nrthshgrl
In the private sector, it's employment at will There are certain job protections (age discrimination, sexual discrimination, whistleblower protection, etc) in the workplace. For the most part, it's all about how much would you have to pay out in severance or risk a lawsuit & is it worth settling.
Should a review process or procedure be followed in the private sector to combat that?
I see people complain about others getting a benefit that they would cherish if it existed in their own workplace. They may not be anti-tenure, anti-flex time, anti-union if it benefitted or protected them.
I see that argument a lot- "well, I don't have any tenure/due process/etc in my job, so why should you?" and I guess that raises the question "Why don't you have such protections?" because IMO no one deserves to be fired on a whim, no one deserves to lose their position because the boss's nephew needs a job, no one deserves to lose a job because they've become too expensive and can be replaced by someone at half the cost (which actually IS happening to NYC teachers because of new funding formulas).
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| Posted 9/22/10 11:38 AM |
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Moehick
Ready for the sun!
Member since 5/05 30339 total posts
Name:
Properly perfect™
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Re: What is the point of tenure?
Most every public employee has job protection. Think about the process to fire in the police, fire dept, sanitation,etc. There jobs are pretty protected but they just don't call it tenure.
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| Posted 9/23/10 5:23 PM |
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