|
Invalid topic.
Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
| Posted By |
Message |
| Pages: << 4 5 6 [7] |
Funkybutt
LIF Adult
Member since 4/15 3049 total posts
Name:
|
Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Not too surprising, but at least his supporters can stop thinking this rapist still has a chance at a swimming career.
http://nypost.com/2016/06/10/usa-swimming-bans-brock-turner-for-life/
|
Posted 6/10/16 12:29 PM  |
| |
|
Long Island Weddings
Long Island's Largest Bridal Resource |
MandJZ
Time for Baby #2!
Member since 8/10 4194 total posts
Name:
M
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
I'm just gonna put this here:
“Two weeks ago a man in France was arrested for raping his daughter. She’d gone to her school counselor and then the police, but they needed “hard evidence.” So, she videotaped her next assault. Her father was eventually arrested. His attorney explained, “There was a period when he was unemployed and in the middle of a divorce. He insists that these acts did not stretch back further than three or four months. His daughter says longer. But everyone should be very careful in what they say.” Because, really, even despite her seeking help, her testimony, her bravery in setting up a webcam to film her father raping her, you really can’t believe what the girl says, can you?
Everyone “knows” this. Even children.
Three years ago, in fly-on-the-wall fashion of parent drivers everywhere, I listened while a 14-year-old girl in the back seat of my car described how angry she was that her parents had stopped allowing her to walk home alone just because a girl in her neighborhood “claimed she was raped.” When I asked her if there was any reason to think the girl’s story was not true, she said, “Girls lie about rape all the time.” She didn’t know the person, she just assumed she was lying…
No one says, “You can’t trust women,” but distrust them we do. College students surveyed revealed that they think up to 50% of their female peers lie when they accuse someone of rape, despite wide-scale evidence and multi-country studies that show the incident of false rape reports to be in the 2%-8% range, pretty much the same as false claims for other crimes. As late as 2003, people jokingly (wink, wink) referred to Philadelphia’s sex crimes unit as “the lying ***** unit.” If an 11-year-old girl told an adult that her father took out a Craigslist ad to find someone to beat and rape her while he watched, as recently actually occurred, what do you think the response would be? Would she need to provide a videotape after the fact?
It goes way beyond sexual assault as well. That’s just the most likely and obvious demonstration of “women are born to lie” myths. Women’s credibility is questioned in the workplace, in courts, by law enforcement, in doctors’ offices, and in our political system. People don’t trust women to be bosses, or pilots, or employees. Pakistan’s controversial Hudood Ordinance still requires a female rape victim to procure four male witnesses to her rape or risk prosecution for adultery. In August, a survey of managers in the United States revealed that they overwhelmingly distrust women who request flextime. It’s notable, of course, that women are trusted to be mothers—the largest pool of undervalued, unpaid, economically crucial labor.”
- Soraya Chemaly, How We Teach Our Kids That Women Are Liars
|
| Posted 6/10/16 1:49 PM |
| |
|
mommyagain3
LIF Infant
Member since 6/15 144 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Posted by MandJZ
I'm just gonna put this here:
“Two weeks ago a man in France was arrested for raping his daughter. She’d gone to her school counselor and then the police, but they needed “hard evidence.” So, she videotaped her next assault. Her father was eventually arrested. His attorney explained, “There was a period when he was unemployed and in the middle of a divorce. He insists that these acts did not stretch back further than three or four months. His daughter says longer. But everyone should be very careful in what they say.” Because, really, even despite her seeking help, her testimony, her bravery in setting up a webcam to film her father raping her, you really can’t believe what the girl says, can you?
Everyone “knows” this. Even children.
Three years ago, in fly-on-the-wall fashion of parent drivers everywhere, I listened while a 14-year-old girl in the back seat of my car described how angry she was that her parents had stopped allowing her to walk home alone just because a girl in her neighborhood “claimed she was raped.” When I asked her if there was any reason to think the girl’s story was not true, she said, “Girls lie about rape all the time.” She didn’t know the person, she just assumed she was lying…
No one says, “You can’t trust women,” but distrust them we do. College students surveyed revealed that they think up to 50% of their female peers lie when they accuse someone of rape, despite wide-scale evidence and multi-country studies that show the incident of false rape reports to be in the 2%-8% range, pretty much the same as false claims for other crimes. As late as 2003, people jokingly (wink, wink) referred to Philadelphia’s sex crimes unit as “the lying ***** unit.” If an 11-year-old girl told an adult that her father took out a Craigslist ad to find someone to beat and rape her while he watched, as recently actually occurred, what do you think the response would be? Would she need to provide a videotape after the fact?
It goes way beyond sexual assault as well. That’s just the most likely and obvious demonstration of “women are born to lie” myths. Women’s credibility is questioned in the workplace, in courts, by law enforcement, in doctors’ offices, and in our political system. People don’t trust women to be bosses, or pilots, or employees. Pakistan’s controversial Hudood Ordinance still requires a female rape victim to procure four male witnesses to her rape or risk prosecution for adultery. In August, a survey of managers in the United States revealed that they overwhelmingly distrust women who request flextime. It’s notable, of course, that women are trusted to be mothers—the largest pool of undervalued, unpaid, economically crucial labor.”
- Soraya Chemaly, How We Teach Our Kids That Women Are Liars
Very powerful
|
| Posted 6/10/16 2:36 PM |
| |
|
lululu
LIF Adult
Member since 7/05 9511 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Posted by EatingMyVeggies
Posted by lululu
ETA: As far as my daughters are concerned. If this happened to them I don't know how much time I would spend focused on how much I want the perpetrator to rot behind bars for the rest of his life and blaming myself for not teaching my daughters that there are bad people everywhere, and when you drink alcohol in excess and lose control of yourself to the point that you are passed out, you are making yourself vulnerable to this type of thing and a million other horrible things that could take place. Probably also not the right place for blame, but I would be blaming myself nonetheless.
That right there is a fundamental problem. Alcohol doesn't cause rape. Revealing clothing doesn't cause rape. Walking home alone late at night doesn't cause rape. Rapist cause rape.
It's like saying that if you drive home late at night, it's your fault for being out when there could be a drunk driver on the road. I'm not trying to pick on you, but these type of things, this line of thinking…its part of the problem. And I'm not blaming you or singling you out, but I think it's good to sort of bring it up, you know?
We need to stop telling women that they have to be careful when they go out and we have to start teaching boys that rape is rape if someone can't consent, if somebody's passed out, if somebody can't even manage a simple sentence, they are not fit to have sex Or give consent to any physical activity. and no means no. Silence means no.
We have a guy here on Long Island who is probably going to get a longer sentence for fiddling with red light cameras than this guy right here… There's something seriously wrong with that
In my heart of hearts, I feel that a good decent human being would not find themselves in that situation as a man. Good decent human beings would realize that somebody cannot give proper consent. This guy was and is a creep. He's a creep and he's a violator and to me it's clear that he is a young man who was not raised well at all, not just going by this, but by reading what his father wrote.
When you find yourself with somebody who's unconscious and being violated without their consent behind a dumpster, there should no question, no gray area, no murky lines over who the victim is. It is not Brock. And no one should be stripped of their woman card… But that guy… He should be revoked of his human card.
I agree with you 10000% however the problem is that there are creeps out there. Whether you get mugged, or robbed, or you find yourself in a situation where you are with friends that are doing something illegal…. there are a 1000 things that can happen when you drink so much that you don't know what's going on. I plan to teach all of my kids that before they go off to college. I plan to tell them about all the disgusting people out there that will take advantage of someone who is vulnerable. And I think it's my job as a parent to instill that. Hopefully it sticks. To think you can rely on other people acting like decent people will get you in a lot of trouble and I don't think that the world is changing any time soon. I trust NO ONE.
And I just want to add - no where did I say that alcohol causes rape but alcohol in excess to the point of making you black out makes you VULNERABLE. I would encourage my girls to never ever put themselves in situations that make them that vulnerable. If a woman was walking home late at night thru a dangerous neighborhood and she was robbed, it's still not her fault, but she did put herself in a vulnerable situation. You wouldn't say to your daughter - "hey, do whatever you want because it's wrong of others to harm you, and you should rely on that fact." NO! You need to arm your daughters with information and power. Again, even if you make a mistake or a decision to put yourself in a vulnerable place, it doesn't make it okay, it doesn't give someone license to violate you in any way. It's still totally on them and it's all wrong but anyone who wouldn't warn their daughters against this is kind of crazy in my opinion.
Message edited 6/10/2016 3:03:24 PM.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 2:55 PM |
| |
|
MandJZ
Time for Baby #2!
Member since 8/10 4194 total posts
Name:
M
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Posted by lululu
Posted by EatingMyVeggies
Posted by lululu
ETA: As far as my daughters are concerned. If this happened to them I don't know how much time I would spend focused on how much I want the perpetrator to rot behind bars for the rest of his life and blaming myself for not teaching my daughters that there are bad people everywhere, and when you drink alcohol in excess and lose control of yourself to the point that you are passed out, you are making yourself vulnerable to this type of thing and a million other horrible things that could take place. Probably also not the right place for blame, but I would be blaming myself nonetheless.
That right there is a fundamental problem. Alcohol doesn't cause rape. Revealing clothing doesn't cause rape. Walking home alone late at night doesn't cause rape. Rapist cause rape.
It's like saying that if you drive home late at night, it's your fault for being out when there could be a drunk driver on the road. I'm not trying to pick on you, but these type of things, this line of thinking…its part of the problem. And I'm not blaming you or singling you out, but I think it's good to sort of bring it up, you know?
We need to stop telling women that they have to be careful when they go out and we have to start teaching boys that rape is rape if someone can't consent, if somebody's passed out, if somebody can't even manage a simple sentence, they are not fit to have sex Or give consent to any physical activity. and no means no. Silence means no.
We have a guy here on Long Island who is probably going to get a longer sentence for fiddling with red light cameras than this guy right here… There's something seriously wrong with that
In my heart of hearts, I feel that a good decent human being would not find themselves in that situation as a man. Good decent human beings would realize that somebody cannot give proper consent. This guy was and is a creep. He's a creep and he's a violator and to me it's clear that he is a young man who was not raised well at all, not just going by this, but by reading what his father wrote.
When you find yourself with somebody who's unconscious and being violated without their consent behind a dumpster, there should no question, no gray area, no murky lines over who the victim is. It is not Brock. And no one should be stripped of their woman card… But that guy… He should be revoked of his human card.
I agree with you 10000% however the problem is that there are creeps out there. Whether you get mugged, or robbed, or you find yourself in a situation where you are with friends that are doing something illegal…. there are a 1000 things that can happen when you drink so much that you don't know what's going on. I plan to teach all of my kids that before they go off to college. I plan to tell them about all the disgusting people out there that will take advantage of someone who is vulnerable. And I think it's my job as a parent to instill that. Hopefully it sticks. To think you can rely on other people acting like decent people will get you in a lot of trouble and I don't think that the world is changing any time soon. I trust NO ONE.
IMO, teaching our children (our SONS especially) not to take advantage of, not to harm, not to TOUCH others without consent...those are the lessons. This woman was over 21. She wasn't drinking illegally. Is getting so drunk you pass out the best behavior in the world? No. But she didn't do anything illegal.
This isn't directed at you, just a thought that connects with my previous one, but I find it so problematic that discussion of a woman's behavior (whether it's drinking, or how she's dressed, or whatever) is linked at all to a discussion of rape. People want to teach their daughters to be careful when drinking, or to dress modestly, etc etc, that's GREAT. But a conversation about a rape case shouldn't be linked to those discussions. Rape is always and ONLY the fault and responsibility of the rapist.
Message edited 6/10/2016 3:06:34 PM.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 3:05 PM |
| |
|
lululu
LIF Adult
Member since 7/05 9511 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Posted by MandJZ
IMO, teaching our children (our SONS especially) not to take advantage of, not to harm, not to TOUCH others without consent...those are the lessons. This woman was over 21. She wasn't drinking illegally. Is getting so drunk you pass out the best behavior in the world? No. But she didn't do anything illegal.
This isn't directed at you, just a thought that connects with my previous one, but I find it so problematic that discussion of a woman's behavior (whether it's drinking, or how she's dressed, or whatever) is linked at all to a discussion of rape. People want to teach their daughters to be careful when drinking, or to dress modestly, etc etc, that's GREAT. But a conversation about a rape case shouldn't be linked to those discussions. Rape is always and ONLY the fault and responsibility of the rapist.
I agree again - and I have a son and I plan to teach him those things (even thou he's destined to be a "douchy douche bag" because of his name, where he summers and the fact that he is growing up privileged). I will honestly teach my son the same thing I teach my daughters - that there are bad people out there. There are people that will take advantage of someone that might be vulnerable. It would be lovely if the world were all sprinkles and rainbows but it's not and there are bad people out there.
And it's just human nature to talk about the whole story. I don't think that we should leave out the fact that she was black out drunk. We should address that - not to place blame on her or shame her in anyway. I can tell you I have put myself in many more dangerous situations than I would like to admit because of alcohol. In my opinion this is a two part discussion. It's that you should never ever violate someone in any way but also that there is no safe place out there. I am sure she felt safe. She was at a fraternity party at a nice safe school close to her home where i am sure most of the kids know how to control themselves and not RAPE someone and this still was able to happen. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere and until the world completely changes, I am not going to believe it can't.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 3:17 PM |
| |
|
SecretlyTTC14
LIF Adult
Member since 12/13 1770 total posts
Name:
B
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Posted by MandJZ
I'm just gonna put this here:
“Two weeks ago a man in France was arrested for raping his daughter. She’d gone to her school counselor and then the police, but they needed “hard evidence.” So, she videotaped her next assault. Her father was eventually arrested. His attorney explained, “There was a period when he was unemployed and in the middle of a divorce. He insists that these acts did not stretch back further than three or four months. His daughter says longer. But everyone should be very careful in what they say.” Because, really, even despite her seeking help, her testimony, her bravery in setting up a webcam to film her father raping her, you really can’t believe what the girl says, can you?
Everyone “knows” this. Even children.
Three years ago, in fly-on-the-wall fashion of parent drivers everywhere, I listened while a 14-year-old girl in the back seat of my car described how angry she was that her parents had stopped allowing her to walk home alone just because a girl in her neighborhood “claimed she was raped.” When I asked her if there was any reason to think the girl’s story was not true, she said, “Girls lie about rape all the time.” She didn’t know the person, she just assumed she was lying…
No one says, “You can’t trust women,” but distrust them we do. College students surveyed revealed that they think up to 50% of their female peers lie when they accuse someone of rape, despite wide-scale evidence and multi-country studies that show the incident of false rape reports to be in the 2%-8% range, pretty much the same as false claims for other crimes. As late as 2003, people jokingly (wink, wink) referred to Philadelphia’s sex crimes unit as “the lying ***** unit.” If an 11-year-old girl told an adult that her father took out a Craigslist ad to find someone to beat and rape her while he watched, as recently actually occurred, what do you think the response would be? Would she need to provide a videotape after the fact?
It goes way beyond sexual assault as well. That’s just the most likely and obvious demonstration of “women are born to lie” myths. Women’s credibility is questioned in the workplace, in courts, by law enforcement, in doctors’ offices, and in our political system. People don’t trust women to be bosses, or pilots, or employees. Pakistan’s controversial Hudood Ordinance still requires a female rape victim to procure four male witnesses to her rape or risk prosecution for adultery. In August, a survey of managers in the United States revealed that they overwhelmingly distrust women who request flextime. It’s notable, of course, that women are trusted to be mothers—the largest pool of undervalued, unpaid, economically crucial labor.”
- Soraya Chemaly, How We Teach Our Kids That Women Are Liars
This is so true and really it's why rape culture and violence against women is so prominent. Men think they can get away with it because no one will believe the woman. Sadly, most of the time they are right.
I find it strange that the same posters who are on this post attacking others for their point of view were the first to comment and basically say a woman is a liar (in another post) because she claims she was a victim of domestic violence. Because you know... women lie about that kind of thing all the time.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 3:18 PM |
| |
|
Mom0710
LIF Adolescent
Member since 9/14 682 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Posted by MandJZ
Posted by lululu
Posted by EatingMyVeggies
Posted by lululu
ETA: As far as my daughters are concerned. If this happened to them I don't know how much time I would spend focused on how much I want the perpetrator to rot behind bars for the rest of his life and blaming myself for not teaching my daughters that there are bad people everywhere, and when you drink alcohol in excess and lose control of yourself to the point that you are passed out, you are making yourself vulnerable to this type of thing and a million other horrible things that could take place. Probably also not the right place for blame, but I would be blaming myself nonetheless.
That right there is a fundamental problem. Alcohol doesn't cause rape. Revealing clothing doesn't cause rape. Walking home alone late at night doesn't cause rape. Rapist cause rape.
It's like saying that if you drive home late at night, it's your fault for being out when there could be a drunk driver on the road. I'm not trying to pick on you, but these type of things, this line of thinking…its part of the problem. And I'm not blaming you or singling you out, but I think it's good to sort of bring it up, you know?
We need to stop telling women that they have to be careful when they go out and we have to start teaching boys that rape is rape if someone can't consent, if somebody's passed out, if somebody can't even manage a simple sentence, they are not fit to have sex Or give consent to any physical activity. and no means no. Silence means no.
We have a guy here on Long Island who is probably going to get a longer sentence for fiddling with red light cameras than this guy right here… There's something seriously wrong with that
In my heart of hearts, I feel that a good decent human being would not find themselves in that situation as a man. Good decent human beings would realize that somebody cannot give proper consent. This guy was and is a creep. He's a creep and he's a violator and to me it's clear that he is a young man who was not raised well at all, not just going by this, but by reading what his father wrote.
When you find yourself with somebody who's unconscious and being violated without their consent behind a dumpster, there should no question, no gray area, no murky lines over who the victim is. It is not Brock. And no one should be stripped of their woman card… But that guy… He should be revoked of his human card.
I agree with you 10000% however the problem is that there are creeps out there. Whether you get mugged, or robbed, or you find yourself in a situation where you are with friends that are doing something illegal…. there are a 1000 things that can happen when you drink so much that you don't know what's going on. I plan to teach all of my kids that before they go off to college. I plan to tell them about all the disgusting people out there that will take advantage of someone who is vulnerable. And I think it's my job as a parent to instill that. Hopefully it sticks. To think you can rely on other people acting like decent people will get you in a lot of trouble and I don't think that the world is changing any time soon. I trust NO ONE.
IMO, teaching our children (our SONS especially) not to take advantage of, not to harm, not to TOUCH others without consent...those are the lessons. This woman was over 21. She wasn't drinking illegally. Is getting so drunk you pass out the best behavior in the world? No. But she didn't do anything illegal.
This isn't directed at you, just a thought that connects with my previous one, but I find it so problematic that discussion of a woman's behavior (whether it's drinking, or how she's dressed, or whatever) is linked at all to a discussion of rape. People want to teach their daughters to be careful when drinking, or to dress modestly, etc etc, that's GREAT. But a conversation about a rape case shouldn't be linked to those discussions. Rape is always and ONLY the fault and responsibility of the rapist.
Agreed and I can't believe on a board that is almost 100% women we are debating where or not she was raped. She had bruises and scratches where you don't get from consensual sex. She was behind a dumpster. She was unconscious. She did not give consent. I will teach my girls to protect themselves. And to make as much noise as possible if they think they are in danger. It's not about not trusting anyone ever it's about being safe and using your head.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 3:40 PM |
| |
|
MandJZ
Time for Baby #2!
Member since 8/10 4194 total posts
Name:
M
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Posted by lululu
Posted by MandJZ
IMO, teaching our children (our SONS especially) not to take advantage of, not to harm, not to TOUCH others without consent...those are the lessons. This woman was over 21. She wasn't drinking illegally. Is getting so drunk you pass out the best behavior in the world? No. But she didn't do anything illegal.
This isn't directed at you, just a thought that connects with my previous one, but I find it so problematic that discussion of a woman's behavior (whether it's drinking, or how she's dressed, or whatever) is linked at all to a discussion of rape. People want to teach their daughters to be careful when drinking, or to dress modestly, etc etc, that's GREAT. But a conversation about a rape case shouldn't be linked to those discussions. Rape is always and ONLY the fault and responsibility of the rapist.
I agree again - and I have a son and I plan to teach him those things (even thou he's destined to be a "douchy douche bag" because of his name, where he summers and the fact that he is growing up privileged). I will honestly teach my son the same thing I teach my daughters - that there are bad people out there. There are people that will take advantage of someone that might be vulnerable. It would be lovely if the world were all sprinkles and rainbows but it's not and there are bad people out there.
And it's just human nature to talk about the whole story. I don't think that we should leave out the fact that she was black out drunk. We should address that - not to place blame on her or shame her in anyway. I can tell you I have put myself in many more dangerous situations than I would like to admit because of alcohol. In my opinion this is a two part discussion. It's that you should never ever violate someone in any way but also that there is no safe place out there. I am sure she felt safe. She was at a fraternity party at a nice safe school close to her home where i am sure most of the kids know how to control themselves and not RAPE someone and this still was able to happen. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere and until the world completely changes, I am not going to believe it can't.
It implies a correlation or causality, and it perpetuates the idea there IS in fact a link between something a woman does, and her getting attacked or raped.
Discussions with our children about behavior that is respectful, appropriate, careful, etc. should happen all the time, on an ongoing basis. But, in my opinion, a discussion of rape should center on what can be done as a society, as a community (whether it's school or neighborhood or whatever) to make the space safer and to punish the perpetrators. It should not include comments on the victim's behavior. Period.
Message edited 6/10/2016 3:45:59 PM.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 3:44 PM |
| |
|
lululu
LIF Adult
Member since 7/05 9511 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Posted by Mom0710
Agreed and I can't believe on a board that is almost 100% women we are debating where or not she was raped. She had bruises and scratches where you don't get from consensual sex. She was behind a dumpster. She was unconscious. She did not give consent. I will teach my girls to protect themselves. And to make as much noise as possible if they think they are in danger. It's not about not trusting anyone ever it's about being safe and using your head.
Can you show me where someone said they didn't think she was raped? I'm just curious because I missed that. Thought everyone pretty much agreed that she was raped.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 3:44 PM |
| |
|
Mom0710
LIF Adolescent
Member since 9/14 682 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Posted by lululu
Posted by Mom0710
Agreed and I can't believe on a board that is almost 100% women we are debating where or not she was raped. She had bruises and scratches where you don't get from consensual sex. She was behind a dumpster. She was unconscious. She did not give consent. I will teach my girls to protect themselves. And to make as much noise as possible if they think they are in danger. It's not about not trusting anyone ever it's about being safe and using your head.
Can you show me where someone said they didn't think she was raped? I'm just curious because I missed that. Thought everyone pretty much agreed that she was raped.
The digital vs actual penatration. That's what I was referring to.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 4:36 PM |
| |
|
evrythng4areason
And then there were 4
Member since 1/10 5224 total posts
Name:
Kayla
|
Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
I also don't see where there was any question about whether or not she was actually raped-I was under the impression that no one questioned that
|
| Posted 6/10/16 4:43 PM |
| |
|
lululu
LIF Adult
Member since 7/05 9511 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Posted by Mom0710
Posted by lululu
Posted by Mom0710
Agreed and I can't believe on a board that is almost 100% women we are debating where or not she was raped. She had bruises and scratches where you don't get from consensual sex. She was behind a dumpster. She was unconscious. She did not give consent. I will teach my girls to protect themselves. And to make as much noise as possible if they think they are in danger. It's not about not trusting anyone ever it's about being safe and using your head.
Can you show me where someone said they didn't think she was raped? I'm just curious because I missed that. Thought everyone pretty much agreed that she was raped.
The digital vs actual penatration. That's what I was referring to.
I didn't see anyone say that they didn't think digital penetration was rape. Can you show me where? They just said it was a different form of rape than say gang rape, etc.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 4:49 PM |
| |
|
Mom0710
LIF Adolescent
Member since 9/14 682 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
ok then, I stand corrected. This topic gets me too angry to see straight. What this poor girl went thru and continues to go thru, makes my heart hurt.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 4:52 PM |
| |
|
Mom0710
LIF Adolescent
Member since 9/14 682 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Posted by lululu
Posted by Mom0710
Posted by lululu
Posted by Mom0710
Agreed and I can't believe on a board that is almost 100% women we are debating where or not she was raped. She had bruises and scratches where you don't get from consensual sex. She was behind a dumpster. She was unconscious. She did not give consent. I will teach my girls to protect themselves. And to make as much noise as possible if they think they are in danger. It's not about not trusting anyone ever it's about being safe and using your head.
Can you show me where someone said they didn't think she was raped? I'm just curious because I missed that. Thought everyone pretty much agreed that she was raped.
The digital vs actual penatration. That's what I was referring to.
I didn't see anyone say that they didn't think digital penetration was rape. Can you show me where? They just said it was a different form of rape than say gang rape, etc.
That's what I saw. I stand corrected. See above post
|
| Posted 6/10/16 4:53 PM |
| |
|
shadows
LIF Adult
Member since 1/10 4694 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Posted by lululu
Posted by MandJZ
IMO, teaching our children (our SONS especially) not to take advantage of, not to harm, not to TOUCH others without consent...those are the lessons. This woman was over 21. She wasn't drinking illegally. Is getting so drunk you pass out the best behavior in the world? No. But she didn't do anything illegal.
This isn't directed at you, just a thought that connects with my previous one, but I find it so problematic that discussion of a woman's behavior (whether it's drinking, or how she's dressed, or whatever) is linked at all to a discussion of rape. People want to teach their daughters to be careful when drinking, or to dress modestly, etc etc, that's GREAT. But a conversation about a rape case shouldn't be linked to those discussions. Rape is always and ONLY the fault and responsibility of the rapist.
I agree again - and I have a son and I plan to teach him those things (even thou he's destined to be a "douchy douche bag" because of his name, where he summers and the fact that he is growing up privileged). I will honestly teach my son the same thing I teach my daughters - that there are bad people out there. There are people that will take advantage of someone that might be vulnerable. It would be lovely if the world were all sprinkles and rainbows but it's not and there are bad people out there.
And it's just human nature to talk about the whole story. I don't think that we should leave out the fact that she was black out drunk. We should address that - not to place blame on her or shame her in anyway. I can tell you I have put myself in many more dangerous situations than I would like to admit because of alcohol. In my opinion this is a two part discussion. It's that you should never ever violate someone in any way but also that there is no safe place out there. I am sure she felt safe. She was at a fraternity party at a nice safe school close to her home where i am sure most of the kids know how to control themselves and not RAPE someone and this still was able to happen. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere and until the world completely changes, I am not going to believe it can't.
I agree on all counts. To me, teaching common sense safety has nothing to do with placing blame on the woman and has zero to do with gender at all. I would teach a boy that it's not smart to be blackout drunk wandering around. I hate to say it, but once rape is involved it's like you can't even question whether the victim was using good old common sense in terms of her own safety or you're "blaming" her. It's not safe for me, my brother, my husband, or anyone else to be walking around blackout drunk late at night for a hundred reasons. OF COURSE this guy is a despicable POS - that goes without saying.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 5:04 PM |
| |
|
ap123
LIF Infant
Member since 10/10 268 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Posted by MandJZ
Posted by lululu
Posted by MandJZ
IMO, teaching our children (our SONS especially) not to take advantage of, not to harm, not to TOUCH others without consent...those are the lessons. This woman was over 21. She wasn't drinking illegally. Is getting so drunk you pass out the best behavior in the world? No. But she didn't do anything illegal.
This isn't directed at you, just a thought that connects with my previous one, but I find it so problematic that discussion of a woman's behavior (whether it's drinking, or how she's dressed, or whatever) is linked at all to a discussion of rape. People want to teach their daughters to be careful when drinking, or to dress modestly, etc etc, that's GREAT. But a conversation about a rape case shouldn't be linked to those discussions. Rape is always and ONLY the fault and responsibility of the rapist.
I agree again - and I have a son and I plan to teach him those things (even thou he's destined to be a "douchy douche bag" because of his name, where he summers and the fact that he is growing up privileged). I will honestly teach my son the same thing I teach my daughters - that there are bad people out there. There are people that will take advantage of someone that might be vulnerable. It would be lovely if the world were all sprinkles and rainbows but it's not and there are bad people out there.
And it's just human nature to talk about the whole story. I don't think that we should leave out the fact that she was black out drunk. We should address that - not to place blame on her or shame her in anyway. I can tell you I have put myself in many more dangerous situations than I would like to admit because of alcohol. In my opinion this is a two part discussion. It's that you should never ever violate someone in any way but also that there is no safe place out there. I am sure she felt safe. She was at a fraternity party at a nice safe school close to her home where i am sure most of the kids know how to control themselves and not RAPE someone and this still was able to happen. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere and until the world completely changes, I am not going to believe it can't.
It implies a correlation or causality, and it perpetuates the idea there IS in fact a link between something a woman does, and her getting attacked or raped.
Discussions with our children about behavior that is respectful, appropriate, careful, etc. should happen all the time, on an ongoing basis. But, in my opinion, a discussion of rape should center on what can be done as a society, as a community (whether it's school or neighborhood or whatever) to make the space safer and to punish the perpetrators. It should not include comments on the victim's behavior. Period.
I think there is a correlation between what a woman does and getting raped. It doesn't make it ok, this poor girl didn't deserve this, no one does, but it's really naive to think there is no link between being drunk to the point of passing out and being an easy target.
This world is a dangerous and disgusting place, while rape is a discussion for society, in my house it will be a discussion of how to lessen your chances of being a victim.
I don't blame the victim, I think he should rot in jail for 20 years. But I'm not counting on society to protect my kids, I'm going to prepare them with the facts and reality of this world, that only you can protect yourself.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 5:12 PM |
| |
|
|
|
Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Myth: A person can avoid being raped as long as he or she follows certain guidelines, such as acting or dressing conservatively, not going out at night alone, and refraining from drinking alcohol or doing drugs.
Fact: Rape can happen to anyone at any time, no matter how cautious they are. Advising people to follow “guidelines” to avoid being sexually assaulted puts the responsibility of the assault on the victim. Instead, it is the responsibility of the assailant to avoid sexually assaulting others, and as a community, it is our responsibility to understand and promote the fact that sexual assault is never trivial, excusable or deserved, and
it is never the victim’s fault.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 5:30 PM |
| |
|
ap123
LIF Infant
Member since 10/10 268 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Completely agree with the points that it's never a victims fault and that it can happen to anyone, but I think there are things that make it far less likely to happen, especially in the college setting.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 5:38 PM |
| |
|
|
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Posted by ap123
Completely agree with the points that it's never a victims fault and that it can happen to anyone, but I think there are things that make it far less likely to happen, especially in the college setting.
That's the thing though - it's a misconception. Usually it's someone you know and trust. So let's say you hang out with friends you know well and trust. You feel safe, why wouldn't you, you're with friends? Until one of them rapes or sexually assaults you. The stat is something like 80% of victims knew their rapist.
Overall, the dialogue should change from safety & prevention (which places everything on the potential victim) to having stricter rape laws with tougher sentences, increased education for BOYS and MEN and encouraging a society of consent.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 5:45 PM |
| |
|
ap123
LIF Infant
Member since 10/10 268 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Posted by EatingMyVeggies
Posted by ap123
Completely agree with the points that it's never a victims fault and that it can happen to anyone, but I think there are things that make it far less likely to happen, especially in the college setting.
That's the thing though - it's a misconception. Usually it's someone you know and trust. So let's say you hang out with friends you know well and trust. You feel safe, why wouldn't you, you're with friends? Until one of them rapes or sexually assaults you. The stat is something like 80% of victims knew their rapist.
Overall, the dialogue should change from safety & prevention (which places everything on the potential victim) to having stricter rape laws with tougher sentences, increased education for BOYS and MEN and encouraging a society of consent.
That's a very good point about most people knowing the attacker. Absolutely we need stricter sentences, and for boys to be educated. But I think it would be foolish to send my DC out into the world without making her aware that she can protect herself, she can be aware, spot danger and use good sense. Will it keep her safe always, no, but it certainly can't hurt.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 5:52 PM |
| |
|
|
|
Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
I understand what you're saying. I get it. And in many ways, what you say has merit.
What I'm trying to say is that if people continue to tell women not to drink to excess, not to go out and have fun, not to dress a certain way or not to do anything that many young men do every weekend -- if somehow their "rape prevention rules" are broken, and they do get raped, they are already going to have it in their head that they have brought it upon themselves. They may be less likely to report it. They will beat themselves up for somehow failing the "rules" society told them to follow to prevent being raped. Meanwhile, they were victimized. By a rapist. You know what I'm saying?
Now someone earlier in this thread said that if this was their daughter, they wouldn't even state here on LIF what they would do because they would be crucified for it… I'm not sure what that poster meant, maybe she would feel her daughter brought it upon herself if she were drinking to excess… I'm not sure - and that's that poster's feeling (whatever it may be and maybe I have it wrong - I probably interpreted it the wrong way). I think it was the same poster who said that their opinion changed of the story once they found out it was just the use of fingers and even after reading the girl's statement, it didn't change her (the poster's) perspective. And that the poster spoke to many people who also changed their opinion once finding out it was digital penetration even though they have daughters too. And I'm not raking anyone Over the coals for feeling like that - but I would like them to hear another side to maybe give them some other sides to mull over.
Of course everyone is going to have their own stance and stuff but I think that this is such an important discussion to have as women.
Message edited 6/10/2016 6:05:16 PM.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 5:58 PM |
| |
|
MandJZ
Time for Baby #2!
Member since 8/10 4194 total posts
Name:
M
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Posted by EatingMyVeggies
I understand what you're saying. I get it. And in many ways, what you say has merit.
What I'm trying to say is that if people continue to tell women not to drink to excess, not to go out and have fun, not to dress a certain way or not to do anything that many young men do every weekend -- if somehow their "rape prevention rules" are broken, and they do get raped, they are already going to have it in their head that they have brought it upon themselves. They may be less likely to report it. They will beat themselves up for somehow failing the "rules" society told them to follow to prevent being raped. Meanwhile, they were victimized. By a rapist. You know what I'm saying?
Now someone earlier in this thread said that if this was their daughter, they wouldn't even state here on LIF what they would do because they would be crucified for it… I'm not sure what that poster meant, maybe she would feel her daughter brought it upon herself if she were drinking to excess… I'm not sure - and that's that poster's feeling (whatever it may be and maybe I have it wrong - I probably interpreted it the wrong way). I think it was the same poster who said that their opinion changed of the story once they found out it was just the use of fingers and even after reading the girl's statement, it didn't change her (the poster's) perspective. And that the poster spoke to many people who also changed their opinion once finding out it was digital penetration even though they have daughters too. And I'm not raking anyone Over the coals for feeling like that - but I would like them to hear another side to maybe give them some other sides to mull over.
Of course everyone is going to have their own stance and stuff but I think that this is such an important discussion to have as women.
This. And there IS NO correlation or causation between a woman's behavior and her becoming the victim of a violent crime, especially sexual assault. A woman not drinking alcohol on a date with a man she knows is MORE likely to be raped than a woman passed out drunk at a party. Those are facts. So having the discussion about safety IN RELATION to the discussion about rape perpetuates blame the victim mentality.
Have discussions about safety and common sense and behavior with our children, sons and daughters, of course. But linking that discussion to rape only furthers the mentality and ideology that a woman can bring rape on herself. She can't. No matter what.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 6:10 PM |
| |
|
ap123
LIF Infant
Member since 10/10 268 total posts
Name:
|
Re: Brock Turner, six-month sentence, '20 minutes of action', and that whole story.
Statistically that may be the case, but I think that women are far less likely to report a rape if they were a victim when highly intoxicated. Either way, I respect your opinion.
My conversations with my kids about protecting themselves by making good choices aren't really tied to rape, but to tons of other terrible things that I feel they could better protect against if they were of sound mind.
|
| Posted 6/10/16 6:27 PM |
| |
|
| Pages: << 4 5 6 [7] |
Currently 384451 users on the LIFamilies.com Chat
|
Long Island Bridal Shows
|
