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itsbabytime
LIF Adult
Member since 11/05 9644 total posts
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Me
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
Posted by BargainMama
I think it's great, but it's too bad there is an income cap. $125k a year is not very much living on Long Island.
I don't think it's great at all for a number of reasons. And, yes, honestly it's not easy for someone to pay $200,000 for college even if you make $150,000 a year. A parents income should not determine a child's ability to go to college JMO. And there should definitely be some merit requirements other than an income threshold.
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Posted 1/4/17 12:25 PM  |
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BargainMama
LIF Adult
Member since 5/09 15657 total posts
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
Posted by mrsBLT
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by Paramount
I will GLADLY pay more in taxes to send kids to school for free.
Givuing them a college education with no debt will make this state great. Give kids purpose. Mean more jobs.
Its a win win.
Invest in these kids for 4 more years beyond free high school.
Sadly though a college degree doesn't mean a job anymore.
And vice versa.
Some people will do better and have more job opportunities by learning a trade. Or going into civil service.
My college degree- I don't even use it for my job.
My boss- who is a VP in my company, never even went to college.
I just don't think a 4 year degree is the answer to getting a job anymore, unfortunately
ITA! Not everyone is meant to go to college, and our society benefits from those who choose paths other than college.
I would love to see more money put into CTE high school programs o
I agree with this...BOCES has some great CTE programs, but sadly not all high schools will pay to send their kids unless they are a student with a disability (then they go to Special career programs there).
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| Posted 1/4/17 12:25 PM |
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itsbabytime
LIF Adult
Member since 11/05 9644 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
!!
Message edited 6/30/2017 8:59:43 PM.
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| Posted 1/4/17 12:31 PM |
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busymomonli
Resident Insomniac
Member since 4/13 2046 total posts
Name:
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
Posted by itsbabytime
Posted by busymomonli
Posted by gforce
Posted by busymomonli
My questions as well. And in my opinion, they are going to have to make their admissions requirements much stricter.
My daughter is a junior and her reaction was this: "Great, now every dumb moron can go to college right along side me. Why did I bother taking all these AP classes and getting a 4.0 GPA when now everyone can just go?" I thought it was interesting.
I don't think a dumb moron didn't go to college because they can't afford it. A dumb moron didn't go to college because they can't get into college because of their grades. The admission requirements should be the same and hopefully the free tuition will motivate people to learn, as the possibility of a college education is possible now.
I live in a working class district. Many kids here don't try very hard because they know their parents can't afford college. They slack off, smoke pot, and get below average/average grades because they think their only option is Suffolk Community College. I think her point was that she worked her butt off for her grades and now those kids that are barely trying can go to college alongside her.
I feel like they would have to change their admissions requirements. There will be a huge influx in the amount of applications, there is no way they could accept them all. Standards will have go up.
Honestly, this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. If a kid is motivated and bright they should try EVEN HARDER, get a scholarship, thrive at Suffolk community etc. etc. Anyone with the mentality you describe quite honestly doesn't deserve a free ride to college. Then what? No motivation to try because they get a shit job to start off with?? Where does it end. Have some drive and motivation. Such a cop-out excuse IMO. There are ways to get through college even if your parents don't have money to pay for it. Get a job, study harder - but I guess smoking weed and partying your ass off is way more appealing 
I totally agree with you and that was my point. I don't think kids should be handed a free ride to college unless they show hard work and motivation. I think some kids will use this as a free ride and that's one of the reasons I don't agree with it.
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| Posted 1/4/17 12:35 PM |
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MrsA1012
love my little girl !
Member since 9/10 5777 total posts
Name:
Me
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
Posted by busymomonli
Posted by bookworm
I'm mostly curious to know whether there will be a minimum GPA students need to maintain in order to get free tuition for subsequent years. As a high school teacher, I see a lot of people's money spent on students who don't want to be there. I believe in free and public education, but I don't personally want kids to drink themselves stupid @ SUNY Albany, skip classes, and fail on my dime. Freshman retention is poor at most colleges for this reason.
If the kids are motivated and working, then I am happy to help subsidize because I think it's good for society, especially considering what we spend to put people in jail...
My questions as well. And in my opinion, they are going to have to make their admissions requirements much stricter.
My daughter is a junior and her reaction was this: "Great, now every dumb moron can go to college right along side me. Why did I bother taking all these AP classes and getting a 4.0 GPA when now everyone can just go?" I thought it was interesting.
. I doesnt make the admissions standards less competitive , just pays for college.
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| Posted 1/4/17 12:37 PM |
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ohbaby08
Winter is Coming
Member since 10/07 1718 total posts
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Cuomo free college announcement
Why would standards have to change? He's not proposing that everyone be accepted, just that those that do get accepted and who's parents make under $125k can go for free. It might increase applications, but that doesn't mean it changes how many or who gets accepted.
I would assume that this will come with some sort of minimum GPA requirement to remain eligible for free tuition, similar to some scholarships.
I think, if done right, it can be a good thing.
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| Posted 1/4/17 12:38 PM |
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bookworm
Two Little Rosebuds
Member since 8/09 2106 total posts
Name:
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
Posted by busymomonli
Posted by gforce
Posted by busymomonli
My questions as well. And in my opinion, they are going to have to make their admissions requirements much stricter.
My daughter is a junior and her reaction was this: "Great, now every dumb moron can go to college right along side me. Why did I bother taking all these AP classes and getting a 4.0 GPA when now everyone can just go?" I thought it was interesting.
I don't think a dumb moron didn't go to college because they can't afford it. A dumb moron didn't go to college because they can't get into college because of their grades. The admission requirements should be the same and hopefully the free tuition will motivate people to learn, as the possibility of a college education is possible now.
I live in a working class district. Many kids here don't try very hard because they know their parents can't afford college. They slack off, smoke pot, and get below average/average grades because they think their only option is Suffolk Community College. I think her point was that she worked her butt off for her grades and now those kids that are barely trying can go to college alongside her.
I feel like they would have to change their admissions requirements. There will be a huge influx in the amount of applications, there is no way they could accept them all. Standards will have go up.
Interestingly, I have found this really not to be the case. I give kids a survey on the first day of school, and I always ask about their plans, as specifically as they understand them. College-bound? Want to be a nurse? A mechanic at your cousin's shop? Determined to get into a specific school? I work in a VERY mixed district: all races, types, socioeconomic circumstances. In my Regents classes, they almost unanimously tell me they're going to college. Many of them can't put a sentence together, and I spend the year bending over backwards to save them from failing with constant contact home, meetings with guidance, outreach to psych support, extra help on my lunch because they won't get up early to meet me before school. Nevertheless, they will blithely insist they are going to college. They are naive and have no sense of what it takes to get there and, more importantly, stay there. This is a generation whose expectations are often insulated from the real consequences of their actions (or inaction). Many of them go to community college briefly and fail. Then they're in the job market with no skill set. I agree with PPs about validating the vocational track for kids. The world needs electricians and house painters. There used to be honor in those professions, but we have brainwashed an entire generation into believing that college is the only respectable path after graduation, and it does them a disservice.
That said, for capable and motivated kids who can get into SUNY schools (as this tuition incentive will surely tighten admissions purely by virtue of competition) I'm happy to subsidize...as long as they maintain a minimum GPA.
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| Posted 1/4/17 1:02 PM |
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busymomonli
Resident Insomniac
Member since 4/13 2046 total posts
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
Posted by bookworm
Interestingly, I have found this really not to be the case. I give kids a survey on the first day of school, and I always ask about their plans, as specifically as they understand them. College-bound? Want to be a nurse? A mechanic at your cousin's shop? Determined to get into a specific school? I work in a VERY mixed district: all races, types, socioeconomic circumstances. In my Regents classes, they almost unanimously tell me they're going to college. Many of them can't put a sentence together, and I spend the year bending over backwards to save them from failing with constant contact home, meetings with guidance, outreach to psych support, extra help on my lunch because they won't get up early to meet me before school. Nevertheless, they will blithely insist they are going to college. They are naive and have no sense of what it takes to get there and, more importantly, stay there. This is a generation whose expectations are often insulated from the real consequences of their actions (or inaction). Many of them go to community college briefly and fail. Then they're in the job market with no skill set. I agree with PPs about validating the vocational track for kids. The world needs electricians and house painters. There used to be honor in those professions, but we have brainwashed an entire generation into believing that college is the only respectable path after graduation, and it does them a disservice.
That said, for capable and motivated kids who can get into SUNY schools (as this tuition incentive will surely tighten admissions purely by virtue of competition) I'm happy to subsidize...as long as they maintain a minimum GPA.
Can I ask what grade you teach? I found that to be the case in late middle to early high school, but (at least in my experience in my area) kids tend to wise up in the last two years of high school and reality hits. I don't think there is anything wrong with community college. I stayed local for college and had a great experience. I agree with you on the trade professions. I will push my son in this direction. He is not a motivated student but is great with electronics and such.
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| Posted 1/4/17 1:13 PM |
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lululu
LIF Adult
Member since 7/05 9508 total posts
Name:
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
Posted by busymomonli
My daughter is a junior and her reaction was this: "Great, now every dumb moron can go to college right along side me. Why did I bother taking all these AP classes and getting a 4.0 GPA when now everyone can just go?" I thought it was interesting.
Your daughter's logic is completely flawed. financial aid/tuition has nothing to do with admissions. She should actually be happy about this if she doesn't want to be surrounded by "dumb morons" unless she planned to attend a community college where the only requirement is a high school diploma. If this passes that means anyone who is bright enough to go to a good SUNY school, but refrained from applying due to financial constraints will now apply and be able to attend. It will make all the SUNY schools much harder to get into. I am sure there are tons of kids that have to do two years at a community school before transferring because they can't afford the tuition for a better school that is farther from home.
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| Posted 1/4/17 1:31 PM |
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
Posted by oldtimerocknroll
I like the intent of the plan. However, I have trouble with the $125K part. That income is much different for a family on Long Island than it is for many other parts of the state, for example.
That income is wealthy in some parts of the state; I would say that on Long Island, it still falls into middle class. I think the middle class range is HUGE here, so please do not misinterpret my words; I am not saying you must make $125K to qualify for the middle class. I am saying $125K is in the middle-class range.
I don't think its a bad idea but the 125k is not fair to people on LI. 125 upstate is a lot different than in nassau county.
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| Posted 1/4/17 1:47 PM |
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Cuomo free college announcement
This is just another example of the big hand controlling all of the power while the rest of us fight over crumbs.
College and higher education is also a business.
I think and hope that everyone can agree that nobody should go broke or end up in heaps of debt that are insurmountable just to try to better your position in life.
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| Posted 1/4/17 2:01 PM |
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NervousNell
Just another chapter in life..
Member since 11/09 54917 total posts
Name:
..being a mommy and being a wife!
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
Posted by MrsA1012
Posted by busymomonli
Posted by bookworm
I'm mostly curious to know whether there will be a minimum GPA students need to maintain in order to get free tuition for subsequent years. As a high school teacher, I see a lot of people's money spent on students who don't want to be there. I believe in free and public education, but I don't personally want kids to drink themselves stupid @ SUNY Albany, skip classes, and fail on my dime. Freshman retention is poor at most colleges for this reason.
If the kids are motivated and working, then I am happy to help subsidize because I think it's good for society, especially considering what we spend to put people in jail...
My questions as well. And in my opinion, they are going to have to make their admissions requirements much stricter.
My daughter is a junior and her reaction was this: "Great, now every dumb moron can go to college right along side me. Why did I bother taking all these AP classes and getting a 4.0 GPA when now everyone can just go?" I thought it was interesting.
. I doesnt make the admissions standards less competitive , just pays for college.
Exactly.
While I am not for this, it wouldn't allow just ANYONE to go to college.
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| Posted 1/4/17 2:09 PM |
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Cuomo free college announcement
This also touches on another topic. People also complained about the fight for $15 an hour. People are also whining about the minimum wage being increased. I read the comment sections and people say those jobs aren't meant for long term positions. So let's say you're not cut out for college and you're not cut out for a trade and this is your only job… So you're just screwed?
And maybe a higher rate of minimum wage can help working students pay for college on their own.
It's all just very hypocritical on all sides. No one wants her taxes to go up, people don't like handouts or people using them, but if you try to elevate your position and pay for things on your own, no one wants to pay you a decent wage either.
And don't even get me started on the cost of certifications or books, fees for even applying that are non-refundable, test costs and so on.
I'm just glad I went to college and have no student loan debt and got a job relatively quickly years ago. And even then, it's still tough out there.
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| Posted 1/4/17 2:10 PM |
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PhyllisNJoe
My Box Is Broken
Member since 6/11 9145 total posts
Name:
Phyllis
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
Posted by EatingMyVeggies
This also touches on another topic. People also complained about the fight for $15 an hour. People are also whining about the minimum wage being increased. I read the comment sections and people say those jobs aren't meant for long term positions. So let's say you're not cut out for college and you're not cut out for a trade and this is your only job… So you're just screwed?
And maybe a higher rate of minimum wage can help working students pay for college on their own.
It's all just very hypocritical on all sides. No one wants her taxes to go up, people don't like handouts or people using them, but if you try to elevate your position and pay for things on your own, no one wants to pay you a decent wage either.
And don't even get me started on the cost of certifications or books, fees for even applying that are non-refundable, test costs and so on.
I'm just glad I went to college and have no student loan debt and got a job relatively quickly years ago. And even then, it's still tough out there.
As one of the people "whining" about a $15 min wage, I do like this new idea. With some restrictions.
When it comes to min wage, I would have hoped they had a student wage maybe. So that a 16 yr old high schooler wasn't making the same $15 as an adult feeding a family. The min wage jobs Are meant as learning experience and getting into the work force. I understand some take these jobs out of necessity. But a small business shouldn't be forced to pay 16-20 yr olds $15 an hour. There will be a lot less jobs for teens to learn from.
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| Posted 1/4/17 2:21 PM |
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Bebelove
LIF Adolescent
Member since 8/12 742 total posts
Name:
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
Posted by haveaquestion
Posted by oldtimerocknroll
I like the intent of the plan. However, I have trouble with the $125K part. That income is much different for a family on Long Island than it is for many other parts of the state, for example.
That income is wealthy in some parts of the state; I would say that on Long Island, it still falls into middle class. I think the middle class range is HUGE here, so please do not misinterpret my words; I am not saying you must make $125K to qualify for the middle class. I am saying $125K is in the middle-class range.
I don't think its a bad idea but the 125k is not fair to people on LI. 125 upstate is a lot different than in nassau county.
Agree. This is not meant to benefit the vast majority of families in NYC or Long Island. If that were the case, the cutoff would be 200k. There is a reason for the 125k cutoff. On the contrary, the tuition bill will likely increase and the schools will be near impossible to get into. NYC and LI seem to be the piggy bank for the rest of NYS. CUNY/ SUNY will become the college version of Hunter, Bronx Sci, and Stuy. Even the very brightest students do not make it into these schools. Husband and I were banking on our 3 going to state school, we will see what happens.
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| Posted 1/4/17 2:59 PM |
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Bebelove
LIF Adolescent
Member since 8/12 742 total posts
Name:
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
Posted by EatingMyVeggies
This is just another example of the big hand controlling all of the power while the rest of us fight over crumbs.
College and higher education is also a business.
I think and hope that everyone can agree that nobody should go broke or end up in heaps of debt that are insurmountable just to try to better your position in life.
Agree. Imagine having an income of 150k and paying full ride for 2-3 kids. You (or the kids) would likely end up owing student loans.
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| Posted 1/4/17 3:02 PM |
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JennP
LIF Adult
Member since 10/06 3986 total posts
Name:
Jenn
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
Posted by itsbabytime
Posted by BargainMama
I think it's great, but it's too bad there is an income cap. $125k a year is not very much living on Long Island.
A parents income should not determine a child's ability to go to college JMO.
The irony in your statement is that this is precisely what is happening now and what this policy is trying to solve.
If your parents don't have the money, you're out of luck, more or less. Scholarships help, but school is becoming so expensive that even for very smart students they are often a drop in the bucket. Loans are a joke. Yes, people can go to community college for the first two years, but even two years at a state school can be formidable for some families who've been scraping by and might have more than one child.
We NEED to help our middle and lower income families.
I like the plan (obviously) but the income cap has GOT to go way up. I have always maintained that policies like this need to take into account cost of living. 125k on LI is not the same as 125k in a Rochester suburb.
I also like the idea of merit requirements, and the idea that students could also elect to do an accredited trade school.
For those who are worried about an influx of applicants, it might not be as overly flooded as you might think. On LI, I think most people who want to go to college do actually go, but with this they won't have to graduate with terrible debt. Also, I teach in a Brooklyn high school with lots of lower income students. I have had students who are entitled to tuition waivers at local 2 year schools who still don't want to go for a variety of reasons, some benign (family business, trade school, etc.) and some nefarious (they can make more money selling drugs.) I can see this being different on LI, though, like a previous poster said, where the culture is different and more people expect to go as a matter of course.
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| Posted 1/4/17 5:08 PM |
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eroxgirl
My Loves
Member since 5/05 15697 total posts
Name:
Rebecca
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
I don't think this is a terrible idea. I don't think schools will suddenly be flooded either. $125k is NOT that much money. I don't see swarms and swarms of kids from lower income families all of a sudden rushing to schools because it may be free. Like others have said, there is still a minimum criteria to get into college. I don't hear anyone saying that will change.
And there are already plenty of restrictions on financial aid that I don't see going away anytime soon. When I was applying for loans I had to jump through hoops and show my mother's tax returns even though I hadn't lived with her for a few years when I went back. The advisor told me it was because of those wealthy families who wanted to get out of paying their kids' tuition and would set them up in their own apartment so they appeared to be independent.
I imagine if this were to pass, they would add a few hoops, like maybe past returns just to show you weren't making $$$$$ a year ago and suddenly you're down to $100k just for the freebie.. I mean, how do you eat??
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| Posted 1/4/17 5:41 PM |
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StarsStripes
LIF Adult
Member since 12/12 1192 total posts
Name:
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Cuomo free college announcement
I think it is BS and totally unfair.
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| Posted 1/4/17 5:43 PM |
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ChilisWife
God Bless America
Member since 5/05 3570 total posts
Name:
A.K.
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
If the intent and purpose of this idea was truly to make state college available to more students then they should lower the cost of tuition, or grant more academic scholarships, or put a limit on increases in the already overinflated salaries and benefits of government officials and state school administrators.
So now the person making $150K who has 3 kids cannot send ANY of them to college but is paying for someone else's kid(s) to go?
I am all for giving more students the opportunity to better themselves through education without heavy financial burdens. But to say "hey, people can't afford to pay for college, so we will just make them pay more in taxes instead" makes zero sense to me and quite frankly the way this proposal is laid out right now seems discriminatory. I hope it crashes and burns.
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| Posted 1/4/17 5:51 PM |
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bunnyluck
LIF Adult
Member since 1/14 3196 total posts
Name:
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Cuomo free college announcement
I don't know all the details but I think a better approach is allowing access to state loans to these students...why should it be free based on your parents income? Completely unfair. I'm OK withe free college based on merit, i.e., scholarships but your parents income is so arbitrary and has nothing to do with you. My parents combined made over $125k but had three kids in college at the same time and I have about $25k in student loans (attended a SUNY). They did not pay for my college didn't have the $ and also who knows if they would if they had. They aren't "required" to fund my education. Give students a stake in the game and allow them to make an investment in themselves.
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| Posted 1/4/17 7:45 PM |
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ap123
LIF Infant
Member since 10/10 268 total posts
Name:
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
Posted by bunnyluck
I don't know all the details but I think a better approach is allowing access to state loans to these students...why should it be free based on your parents income? Completely unfair. I'm OK withe free college based on merit, i.e., scholarships but your parents income is so arbitrary and has nothing to do with you. My parents combined made over $125k but had three kids in college at the same time and I have about $25k in student loans (attended a SUNY). They did not pay for my college didn't have the $ and also who knows if they would if they had. They aren't "required" to fund my education. Give students a stake in the game and allow them to make an investment in themselves.
I agree. I thought students with financial needs can apply for direct subsidized federal loans. Additionally, private loans or unsubsized govt loans. If the goal is to graduate with no debt, then the program needs to apply to all in state applicants, with no income restriction. It's unfair for a child of someone making above $125k to graduate with student loans while someone with parents making less leaves college debt free. Both have the same degree in the end, same earning potential.
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| Posted 1/4/17 7:54 PM |
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
Posted by PhyllisNJoe
Posted by EatingMyVeggies
This also touches on another topic. People also complained about the fight for $15 an hour. People are also whining about the minimum wage being increased. I read the comment sections and people say those jobs aren't meant for long term positions. So let's say you're not cut out for college and you're not cut out for a trade and this is your only job… So you're just screwed?
And maybe a higher rate of minimum wage can help working students pay for college on their own.
It's all just very hypocritical on all sides. No one wants her taxes to go up, people don't like handouts or people using them, but if you try to elevate your position and pay for things on your own, no one wants to pay you a decent wage either.
And don't even get me started on the cost of certifications or books, fees for even applying that are non-refundable, test costs and so on.
I'm just glad I went to college and have no student loan debt and got a job relatively quickly years ago. And even then, it's still tough out there.
As one of the people "whining" about a $15 min wage, I do like this new idea. With some restrictions.
When it comes to min wage, I would have hoped they had a student wage maybe. So that a 16 yr old high schooler wasn't making the same $15 as an adult feeding a family. The min wage jobs Are meant as learning experience and getting into the work force. I understand some take these jobs out of necessity. But a small business shouldn't be forced to pay 16-20 yr olds $15 an hour. There will be a lot less jobs for teens to learn from.
I shouldn't have used the word whining. I apologize for that. I agree with you 100% that small biz shouldn't have to pay employees $15/hour. I think NY has so much red tape and taxes galore for small biz and it's a shame. Small businesses should be lucrative and allowed to thrive in the market without a bunch of BS (and I think it's disgraceful that big businesses have loopholes and exemptions for many things).
Student wage sounds like a good idea. I just think of one step allowing someone to get to the next level (like students being able to make decent wages to then use towards higher ed). That way, there's no outcry for taxes to go up (like this proposed plan). It's bootstraps but do-able. I think most want others to be self-sufficient and pay their own way without anything coming out of everyone else's pockets and I think a living wage would help that entirely.
And this isn't to you directly, but in general:
There are people who will need to work and participate in the economy who just simply aren't cut out for many careers or trades. Perhaps they have some limitations (social, mental, etc) but they *want* and need to work. To me, there's nothing worse than someone who wants to work and needs to, but can't get by at the current wage rate. Especially on our costly Island.
So when i read that many feel retail or food service jobs are just supposed to be a stepping stone, just to gain skills temporarily, and not meant to be forever, I think of that population of people who are fine working in those jobs and have to (people with different disabilities, retirees who worked all their lives but need some extra cash). That's what I find sad - many want to work. There's a lovely girl in my nearby town who has special needs who bags groceries. There's another young man who works at a big box shop who also isn't "typical" but is out there working with a smile. Those people may look at those positions as long term. I give them credit - they are out there working.
I don't want my taxes to go up just like most. But then I think that the other solution then is to increase pay to help others and maybe so they won't be in a position to need to receive aid and the like, you know?
I also agree with many here - $125k isn't a lot by normal LI standards.
Message edited 1/4/2017 8:20:14 PM.
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| Posted 1/4/17 8:19 PM |
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LuckyStar
LIF Adult
Member since 7/14 7272 total posts
Name:
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
Posted by Kate
How is he going to pay for this?
HE isn't. WE are.
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| Posted 1/4/17 8:34 PM |
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drpepper318
MIR MIR MIR!
Member since 6/07 8274 total posts
Name:
me
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Re: Cuomo free college announcement
Such crap & so unfair.
This won't hurt the millionaires. This will hurt the middle class families only, who will be funding this, but make just over the cap to allow their kids to benefit from it.
The abuse this will bring about is ridiculous. People will lie about their incomes, fake a NY address & other scams for the free education.
If you're paying for college (or have loans), you take it more seriously... Now it'll become like public high school... a right instead of a privilege you work hard for.
What does this tell me? That before my kids hit college age I might as well quit my job to lower our household income... what's the incentive to work? So I have to bust my ass & hope my kids get scholarships while others get a free education they don't necessarily deserve that my tax dollars will be paying for, while I have to scrape by to send my own kids to college? No thanks.
Yes let's just perpetuate the culture of laziness & encourage people to stick their hand out more & more instead of working hard for what they get, as it should be.
Sickening.
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| Posted 1/4/17 10:31 PM |
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