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When will this all end???!!!

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Pages: 1 [2] 3

RainyDay
LIF Adult

Member since 6/15

3987 total posts

Name:

Re: When will this all end???!!!

Posted by blu6385

Posted by shadows

I think your question is a totally fair and legitimate one, but unfortunately you’re not going to get an unbiased discussion going here on LIF. You’re not allowed to even dare raise such questions without being called a selfish Trump supporter.



thanks at least some people dont find this post ridiculous.

I dont even really want LIF opinions though I am happy to read them and see other peoples point of view; I want actual facts and I am hoping someone knows where I can find this.

Why some people think this will never end is beyond me.

We survived the Spanish flu in 1918 where we had much less technology and while I hate comparing this to the Spanish flu where technology and sanitzation was mush worse off then they are now.The world survived that I am sure we can survive this!



No one said its never going to end but the Spanish flu didn't just disappear in 6 months.

Posted 7/20/20 6:35 PM
 
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ap123
LIF Infant

Member since 10/10

268 total posts

Name:

Re: When will this all end???!!!

Posted by blu6385

Posted by PitterPatter11

Posted by blu6385

Posted by ap123


How can you expect anyone to have an answer for this when it’s a virus we’ve never seen before? No one knows how it ends, that’s why there is no clear cut path to this.
It’s not like someone is doing this to us for entertainment! There’s a virus that is spreading, there is no vaccine, we don’t know when there will be, we don’t know how effective it will, or who will take it. Until schools open we don’t know how fast this will spread amongst kids. No one is withholding the “answer”, there is no answer



how can I not? I am not asking for a specific date. I am looking for what metrics needs to be hit or if its that we cant go back to normal till there is a vaccine.

Why is this difficult. I am sure scientists or someone has what they need to see for this to be over and where can one find that and why is it not just communicated?

Maybe it is and I just dont know where to look for it!



I’ve seen 14 days of no new cases in your country as a standard. That’s obviously not happening anytime soon in the US.



thank you!! This is the answer I am looking for!

Granted it sucks because you are right it wont happen any time soon but at least this some kind of answer!

Granted maybe there are other answers but this is the type I feel that scientist, officials who ever is making these calls should have and communicate out to everyone!!

ETA: again if there is somewhere I should be looking please tell me where cause when i google it I am not finding it (and its probably cause I am not asking google the correct way!!)



So if we hit that metric and we open up and go back to normal, we’ll get to enjoy that for probably 1 week before we see a ton of new cases and are shut down. I’m not trying to be negative, just realistic. We aren’t going back to precovid life for a long time.

Posted 7/20/20 6:50 PM
 

Kate
*****

Member since 5/05

7557 total posts

Name:
Kate

When will this all end???!!!

A vaccine and/or effective treatments will help it get better. Hopefully, it will eventually be like the regular flu, where we have treatments and a vaccine. I think doctors have already discovered better treatments then they knew about in the beginning (Remdesivir and Hydroxychloroquine, e.g.)

Posted 7/20/20 7:54 PM
 

PitterPatter11
Baby Boy is Here!

Member since 5/11

7613 total posts

Name:
Momma <3

Re: When will this all end???!!!

Posted by ap123

Posted by blu6385

Posted by PitterPatter11

Posted by blu6385

Posted by ap123


How can you expect anyone to have an answer for this when it’s a virus we’ve never seen before? No one knows how it ends, that’s why there is no clear cut path to this.
It’s not like someone is doing this to us for entertainment! There’s a virus that is spreading, there is no vaccine, we don’t know when there will be, we don’t know how effective it will, or who will take it. Until schools open we don’t know how fast this will spread amongst kids. No one is withholding the “answer”, there is no answer



how can I not? I am not asking for a specific date. I am looking for what metrics needs to be hit or if its that we cant go back to normal till there is a vaccine.

Why is this difficult. I am sure scientists or someone has what they need to see for this to be over and where can one find that and why is it not just communicated?

Maybe it is and I just dont know where to look for it!



I’ve seen 14 days of no new cases in your country as a standard. That’s obviously not happening anytime soon in the US.



thank you!! This is the answer I am looking for!

Granted it sucks because you are right it wont happen any time soon but at least this some kind of answer!

Granted maybe there are other answers but this is the type I feel that scientist, officials who ever is making these calls should have and communicate out to everyone!!

ETA: again if there is somewhere I should be looking please tell me where cause when i google it I am not finding it (and its probably cause I am not asking google the correct way!!)



So if we hit that metric and we open up and go back to normal, we’ll get to enjoy that for probably 1 week before we see a ton of new cases and are shut down. I’m not trying to be negative, just realistic. We aren’t going back to precovid life for a long time.



Our country is never going to meet this metric so only a vaccine or treatment will help us return to normal.

Posted 7/20/20 8:20 PM
 

Mrs213
????????

Member since 2/09

18986 total posts

Name:

When will this all end???!!!

When you’re 6 feet under...

Posted 7/20/20 8:31 PM
 

RainyDay
LIF Adult

Member since 6/15

3987 total posts

Name:

Re: When will this all end???!!!

Posted by Mrs213

When you’re 6 feet under...




Chat Icon Chat Icon

Posted 7/20/20 8:57 PM
 

Christine2
LIF Adult

Member since 2/09

1216 total posts

Name:

Re: When will this all end???!!!

The fact that it arose in Wuhan, by a lab studying coronaviruses, makes it extraordinarily likely that this is a manipulated virus and we should all be very concerned about its ability to spread and mutate. They basically were studying how to manipulate viruses to make them more virulent to simulate a pandemic.

Unfortunately, I do not think a vaccine will be super effective. I think we just need to be hygienic, avoid crowds (and protests!) and wear masks. Thankfully the mortality rate remains low. We will probably be living like this for at least another year. After that point, the virus will still exist, but hopefully herd immunity will halt its spread.

Posted 7/20/20 9:47 PM
 

PhyllisNJoe
My Box Is Broken

Member since 6/11

9145 total posts

Name:
Phyllis

Re: When will this all end???!!!

Posted by Kate

A vaccine and/or effective treatments will help it get better. Hopefully, it will eventually be like the regular flu, where we have treatments and a vaccine. I think doctors have already discovered better treatments then they knew about in the beginning (Remdesivir and Hydroxychloroquine, e.g.)



This is my Thought as well. I mean, it seems like the only Logical Answer. As everyone knows, flu kills a lot of people every year, but it doesn’t shut down society because there is a vaccine and there are medical treatments if you catch it early that can help lessen the duration, hopefully keeping it from progressing to anything that needs hospitalization. This was something we had never seen before and until they found treatments that worked, they were throwing everything they had at. Once they have a “Tamiflu” for Covid, and the a vaccine, things will be begin to get back to normal. Hopefully

Posted 7/20/20 9:56 PM
 

Christine2
LIF Adult

Member since 2/09

1216 total posts

Name:

Re: When will this all end???!!!

Interesting read:
https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/coronavirus-is-weakening-could-die-on-its-own-without-vaccine-italian-expert/ar-BB15N3hh?fbclid=IwAR0aa69vMztb7ra62dLvBtvvcS4FtqiTsN6gJBOLOYzlJiJRwSAlJWjRu2A

"The novel coronavirus is no longer lethal as it used to be and could die on its own without a vaccine, an Italian expert has said."

"In March and April, people were coming to the emergency unit with a difficulty to manage the illness as most of them needed oxygen and ventilation," the professor said.
"Now, in the past four weeks, patterns have changed and there could be lower viral load in the respiration system probably due to a genetic mutation in the virus which has not yet been demonstrated scientifically," he added.


Posted 7/20/20 10:13 PM
 

LI12345
LIF Infant

Member since 10/07

193 total posts

Name:

When will this all end???!!!

This is life for the next 12-18 months. Keep in mind the 1918 flu epidemic lasted for 2 years and that was with the country adopting mask wearing as an everyday part of life.

Posted 7/21/20 6:14 AM
 

GoldenRod
10 years on LIF!

Member since 11/06

26792 total posts

Name:
Shawn

When will this all end???!!!

I don't think it will ever be "gone". People in the world still get Polio (about 500 worldwide) and Bubonic Plague (7 in the US last year and about 2000 worldwide) every year, but it's a very small number and they can keep it contained. I think it will be like the Flu, where there is an annual vaccine that keeps it within reasonable control, and we have to learn to live with it. Currently, they don't know the long-term effects. They believe there may be long-term scarring of the lungs, so even though it isn't fatal to most, it could cause problems later on. There is still so much we don't know. We've been studying the flu for 100 years.

Posted 7/21/20 6:19 AM
 

KarenK122
The Journey is the Destination

Member since 5/05

4431 total posts

Name:
Karen

When will this all end???!!!

It will never end until they get a vaccine and an effective treatment protocol. The US would be in a much better position though if people followed the rules. The Fall is going to be the true test, to see if it flares up in the states who have low numbers right now.

Posted 7/21/20 7:08 AM
 

jlm2008
LIF Adult

Member since 1/10

5092 total posts

Name:

Re: When will this all end???!!!

Posted by blu6385

Posted by shadows

I think your question is a totally fair and legitimate one, but unfortunately you’re not going to get an unbiased discussion going here on LIF. You’re not allowed to even dare raise such questions without being called a selfish Trump supporter.



thanks at least some people dont find this post ridiculous.

I dont even really want LIF opinions though I am happy to read them and see other peoples point of view; I want actual facts and I am hoping someone knows where I can find this.

Why some people think this will never end is beyond me.

We survived the Spanish flu in 1918 where we had much less technology and while I hate comparing this to the Spanish flu where technology and sanitzation was mush worse off then they are now.The world survived that I am sure we can survive this!



If you don't want LIF opinions , then you shouldn't post on LIF. But since you did post on a public website, I will continue to give my opinion. And if you haven't noticed, this isn't the flu. this is a virus that the world has NEVER seen before. I never expected the world to last forever, nothing last forever. I don't know why that concept is so incomprehensible.

Posted 7/21/20 7:30 AM
 

jlm2008
LIF Adult

Member since 1/10

5092 total posts

Name:

Re: When will this all end???!!!

Posted by RainyDay

Posted by blu6385

Posted by shadows

I think your question is a totally fair and legitimate one, but unfortunately you’re not going to get an unbiased discussion going here on LIF. You’re not allowed to even dare raise such questions without being called a selfish Trump supporter.



thanks at least some people dont find this post ridiculous.

I dont even really want LIF opinions though I am happy to read them and see other peoples point of view; I want actual facts and I am hoping someone knows where I can find this.

Why some people think this will never end is beyond me.

We survived the Spanish flu in 1918 where we had much less technology and while I hate comparing this to the Spanish flu where technology and sanitzation was mush worse off then they are now.The world survived that I am sure we can survive this!



No one said its never going to end but the Spanish flu didn't just disappear in 6 months.



I did. Obviously I'm not God and don't know that, but I'm not sure why people think we are going to have cure or vaccine for this.

Posted 7/21/20 7:31 AM
 

Lemon76
LIF Infant

Member since 5/20

68 total posts

Name:

Re: When will this all end???!!!

Posted by Christine2

The fact that it arose in Wuhan, by a lab studying coronaviruses, makes it extraordinarily likely that this is a manipulated virus and we should all be very concerned about its ability to spread and mutate. They basically were studying how to manipulate viruses to make them more virulent to simulate a pandemic.

Unfortunately, I do not think a vaccine will be super effective. I think we just need to be hygienic, avoid crowds (and protests!) and wear masks. Thankfully the mortality rate remains low. We will probably be living like this for at least another year. After that point, the virus will still exist, but hopefully herd immunity will halt its spread.



Where is your source that this started in a lab? Not being snarky... I just have never heard that theory before.

And this will "end" when we have gone 14 days with no new Covid-19 deaths.

Message edited 7/21/2020 8:45:18 AM.

Posted 7/21/20 8:44 AM
 

GoldenRod
10 years on LIF!

Member since 11/06

26792 total posts

Name:
Shawn

Re: When will this all end???!!!

Posted by Lemon76

Posted by Christine2

The fact that it arose in Wuhan, by a lab studying coronaviruses, makes it extraordinarily likely that this is a manipulated virus and we should all be very concerned about its ability to spread and mutate. They basically were studying how to manipulate viruses to make them more virulent to simulate a pandemic.

Unfortunately, I do not think a vaccine will be super effective. I think we just need to be hygienic, avoid crowds (and protests!) and wear masks. Thankfully the mortality rate remains low. We will probably be living like this for at least another year. After that point, the virus will still exist, but hopefully herd immunity will halt its spread.



Where is your source that this started in a lab? Not being snarky... I just have never heard that theory before.

And this will "end" when we have gone 14 days with no new Covid-19 deaths.



It was a conspiracy theory early on, but quickly debunked.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/07/13/heres-how-scientists-know-the-coronavirus-wasnt-made-in-a-lab/

Posted 7/21/20 8:50 AM
 

Lemon76
LIF Infant

Member since 5/20

68 total posts

Name:

Re: When will this all end???!!!

That is what I thought Chat Icon Trump propaganda garbage

Posted 7/21/20 8:59 AM
 

blu6385

Member since 5/08

8351 total posts

Name:

Re: When will this all end???!!!

wont quote everyone again!

but I dont expect it to be done in 6 months!!

Thank you for those who gave me answers I was actually looking for.

From what I can tell maybe there is no publication on saying what metrics need to be hit for this to be considered over but if there is again please send it to me I would appreciate it.

And yes I did ask a question on LIF and yes expect everyone opinions and like i stated I dont mind having them and looking at people prescriptive but I certainly wont take any ones opinions as facts.


I think some are misunderstanding this post. Its not intended to say it should be over, we dont need to follow rules etc.

Again I dont see how the powers to be, scientist are not looking for something specific to say its over.

Thats what I want to know is it some metric to hit and/or other things such as a vaccine, herd immunity, better treatment etc.

Personally i think they should be up front constantly and say this where we have to be for this to be considered over or we need a vaccine out like one person said a governor is doing .

Posted 7/21/20 11:07 AM
 

beachgirl
LIF Adult

Member since 7/05

7967 total posts

Name:
sara

Re: When will this all end???!!!

Maybe the powers that be know that we are in this for the long haul but the general masses will say "eff that" if told that we are looking at living like this for the next 12 months so they don't tell the full truth so as to not overwhelm society.

US society especially does not like to be told what to do or to have any of their "liberties" curtailed so it's a tricky nation to curtail.


My two cents.

Posted 7/21/20 11:14 AM
 

RainyDay
LIF Adult

Member since 6/15

3987 total posts

Name:

Re: When will this all end???!!!

Posted by blu6385

wont quote everyone again!

but I dont expect it to be done in 6 months!!

Thank you for those who gave me answers I was actually looking for.

From what I can tell maybe there is no publication on saying what metrics need to be hit for this to be considered over but if there is again please send it to me I would appreciate it.

And yes I did ask a question on LIF and yes expect everyone opinions and like i stated I dont mind having them and looking at people prescriptive but I certainly wont take any ones opinions as facts.


I think some are misunderstanding this post. Its not intended to say it should be over, we dont need to follow rules etc.

Again I dont see how the powers to be, scientist are not looking for something specific to say its over.

Thats what I want to know is it some metric to hit and/or other things such as a vaccine, herd immunity, better treatment etc.

Personally i think they should be up front constantly and say this where we have to be for this to be considered over or we need a vaccine out like one person said a governor is doing .



I would think at this point if they knew when they can consider this to be over we all would have heard about it now. There is no definitive answer to your question.

If you talked to Trump or the Govenor of FL you would be told to go ahead and live life as normal, there are no issues.

If you talk to Cuomo or Fauci we have a long road ahead of us.

Posted 7/21/20 11:43 AM
 

seaside
LIF Adult

Member since 6/08

3101 total posts

Name:

Re: When will this all end???!!!

It's like demanding to know when we can stop worrying about cancer.

There is no answer to that. There are advances made each year, but --man,...if someone could tell us exactly how a universal cure for cancer is going to unfold and give us a timeline, they'd be a fortuneteller.

We all want to see an end in sight. We all ask ourselves these questions--but they have no knowable answers.

It's like the denial and bargaining stages of grief. We all want to deny that this is going to be prolonged with no knowable end right now, and we would all "do anything" --just tell us what--for a light at the end of the tunnel.

But right now, we just have to be as responsible as we can and wait for things to take shape further. Anyone who says they can tell us exactly how and when this threat will disappear is lying.

Posted 7/21/20 12:05 PM
 

DancinBarefoot
06ers Rock!!

Member since 1/07

9534 total posts

Name:
The One My Mother Gave Me ;-)

Re: When will this all end???!!!

Posted by blu6385

when are we allowed to go back to normal, with not having to wear masks, restaurants can be fully opened, movie theaters, sports, schools etc?

Nobody actually knows the answer to this question.

What needs to be achieved? How does this end?

Again, nobody knows the answer to this question.

Why are these questions so hard to answer? To me there has to be something they are looking for to say ok its all good we can go back to living our normal daily lives. The answer of, they dont know should not be acceptable at this point. they have to be looking for something!!

The reality is that there are too many unknowns with this virus. At first it was thought that only symptomatic people could transmit the virus, so masks weren't thought to be necessary. Then it became apparent that asymptomatic people could transmit the virus, so masks were an effective way to help reduce the spread. Now there is a genuine question about whether or not the virus is aerosolized, and how that affects transmission indoors. It was believed the children were not as susceptible to the virus, and didn't easily transmit it to others. Recent research (and what is going on in countries that opened schools) show that isn't true. There are so many unknowns which make your questions difficult, if not impossible to answer. Add to that, if someone gave a metric today, and then research showed it was the wrong metric, people would be screaming that they had been lied to, or mislead, or betrayed or whatever.

I asked the governors office and the response was generic and gave no answer.

Herd immunity? In the conference today they said they dont know if thats effective and how long people are really immune to it. So seems like thats not the answer.

Are they hoping its going to go away on its own?

They might be. Who knows. SARS and MERS - which were both coronoviruses did essentially go away. The Spanish flu took 2 years to die out though.

Is it the vaccine (which I asked when i send the message to the governors office) ?


I think if they were actually clear on what needs to happen to say ok we can go back to normal; people would probably more willing to cooperate and be less resistant on listening to what rules are being in place.

I disagree with this completely. I think if they (whoever the they is in this scenario) said that globally there needs to be no new infections for 10 days, or nationwide for 14 days people would freak out. This country has too many selfish people, and too many uneducated people. By that last statement I mean that the nation's educational system has eroded so significantly in the last 50 or so years, that not all children are taught critical thinking, they are not all taught to examine the world around them, they are not all taught how amazing science can be etc. People who do not have the education to understand and except science, are more likely to be skeptical of medical professionals and scientists, and more apt to believe conspiracy theorists because those conspiracy theories fit into their world view.





Edited to fix typo that was making me Chat Icon Chat Icon Chat Icon

Message edited 7/21/2020 4:58:29 PM.

Posted 7/21/20 3:52 PM
 

mrsrainbow
LIF Adult

Member since 1/17

1465 total posts

Name:

Re: When will this all end???!!!

Posted by DancinBarefoot

Posted by blu6385

when are we allowed to go back to normal, with not having to wear masks, restaurants can be fully opened, movie theaters, sports, schools etc?

Nobody actually knows the answer to this question.

What needs to be achieved? How does this end?

Again, nobody knows the answer to this question.

Why are these questions so hard to answer? To me there has to be something they are looking for to say ok its all good we can go back to living our normal daily lives. The answer of, they dont know should not be acceptable at this point. they have to be looking for something!!

The reality is that there are too many unknowns with this virus. At first it was thought that only symptomatic people could transmit the virus, so masks weren't thought to be necessary. Then it became apparent that asymptomatic people could transmit the virus, so masks were an effective way to help reduce the spread. Now there is a genuine question about whether or not the virus is aerosolized, and how that affects transmission indoors. It was believed the children were not as susceptible to the virus, and didn't easily transmit it to others. Recent research (and what is going on in countries that opened schools) show that isn't true. There are so many unknowns which make your questions difficult, if not impossible to answer. Add to that, if someone gave a metric today, and then research showed it was the wrong metric, people would be screaming that they had been lied to, or mislead, or betrayed or whatever.

I asked the governors office and the response was generic and gave no answer.

Herd immunity? In the conference today they said they dont know if thats effective and how long people are really immune to it. So seems like thats not the answer.

Are they hoping its going to go away on its own?

They might be. Who knows. SARS and MERS - which were both coronoviruses did essentially go away. The Spanish flu took 2 years to die out though.

Is it the vaccine (which I asked when i send the message to the governors office) ?


I think if they were actually clear on what needs to happen to say ok we can go back to normal; people would probably more willing to cooperate and be less resistant on listening to what rules are being in place.

I disagree with this completely. I think if they (whoever the they is in this scenario) said that globally there needs to be no new infections for 10 days, or nationwide for 14 days people would freak out. This country has too many selfish people, and too many uneducated people. By that last statement I mean that the nation's educational system has eroded so significantly in the last 50 or so years, that not all children are taught critical thinking, they are not all taught to exam the world around them, they are not all taught how amazing science can be etc. People who do not have the education to understand and except science, are more likely to be skeptical of medical professionals and scientists, and more apt to believe conspiracy theorists because those conspiracy theories fit into their world view.






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Posted 7/21/20 4:40 PM
 

KateBennetReel
LIF Adolescent

Member since 10/15

555 total posts

Name:
Keep

Re: When will this all end???!!!

Posted by mrsrainbow

Posted by DancinBarefoot

Posted by blu6385

when are we allowed to go back to normal, with not having to wear masks, restaurants can be fully opened, movie theaters, sports, schools etc?

Nobody actually knows the answer to this question.

What needs to be achieved? How does this end?

Again, nobody knows the answer to this question.

Why are these questions so hard to answer? To me there has to be something they are looking for to say ok its all good we can go back to living our normal daily lives. The answer of, they dont know should not be acceptable at this point. they have to be looking for something!!

The reality is that there are too many unknowns with this virus. At first it was thought that only symptomatic people could transmit the virus, so masks weren't thought to be necessary. Then it became apparent that asymptomatic people could transmit the virus, so masks were an effective way to help reduce the spread. Now there is a genuine question about whether or not the virus is aerosolized, and how that affects transmission indoors. It was believed the children were not as susceptible to the virus, and didn't easily transmit it to others. Recent research (and what is going on in countries that opened schools) show that isn't true. There are so many unknowns which make your questions difficult, if not impossible to answer. Add to that, if someone gave a metric today, and then research showed it was the wrong metric, people would be screaming that they had been lied to, or mislead, or betrayed or whatever.

I asked the governors office and the response was generic and gave no answer.

Herd immunity? In the conference today they said they dont know if thats effective and how long people are really immune to it. So seems like thats not the answer.

Are they hoping its going to go away on its own?

They might be. Who knows. SARS and MERS - which were both coronoviruses did essentially go away. The Spanish flu took 2 years to die out though.

Is it the vaccine (which I asked when i send the message to the governors office) ?


I think if they were actually clear on what needs to happen to say ok we can go back to normal; people would probably more willing to cooperate and be less resistant on listening to what rules are being in place.

I disagree with this completely. I think if they (whoever the they is in this scenario) said that globally there needs to be no new infections for 10 days, or nationwide for 14 days people would freak out. This country has too many selfish people, and too many uneducated people. By that last statement I mean that the nation's educational system has eroded so significantly in the last 50 or so years, that not all children are taught critical thinking, they are not all taught to exam the world around them, they are not all taught how amazing science can be etc. People who do not have the education to understand and except science, are more likely to be skeptical of medical professionals and scientists, and more apt to believe conspiracy theorists because those conspiracy theories fit into their world view.






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Posted 7/21/20 4:44 PM
 

Christine2
LIF Adult

Member since 2/09

1216 total posts

Name:

Re: When will this all end???!!!

Posted by GoldenRod

Posted by Lemon76

Posted by Christine2

The fact that it arose in Wuhan, by a lab studying coronaviruses, makes it extraordinarily likely that this is a manipulated virus and we should all be very concerned about its ability to spread and mutate. They basically were studying how to manipulate viruses to make them more virulent to simulate a pandemic.

Unfortunately, I do not think a vaccine will be super effective. I think we just need to be hygienic, avoid crowds (and protests!) and wear masks. Thankfully the mortality rate remains low. We will probably be living like this for at least another year. After that point, the virus will still exist, but hopefully herd immunity will halt its spread.





Where is your source that this started in a lab? Not being snarky... I just have never heard that theory before.

And this will "end" when we have gone 14 days with no new Covid-19 deaths.



It was a conspiracy theory early on, but quickly debunked.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/07/13/heres-how-scientists-know-the-coronavirus-wasnt-made-in-a-lab/



It is way too convenient for it to not have been created in a lab. Believe what you will. I think Bret Weinstein, who is a respected biologist and much smarter than I am, puts it more eloquently than I can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQLF4DUSXGs

Posted 7/21/20 5:34 PM
 
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