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beachbabe
LIF Adolescent
Member since 9/15 731 total posts
Name:
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Voting Yes tomorrow question
What are the positives to voting yes tomorrow on the ballot?
All I'm hearing are reasons for voting no, but what are some reasons to vote yes?
I'm trying to understand this more so I can make an informed decision tomorrow. TIA!
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Posted 11/6/17 12:43 PM  |
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VeeJay
Love baby feet
Member since 2/09 2894 total posts
Name:
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
See the link from the state board of elections website.
2017 Proposals
Message edited 11/6/2017 1:23:24 PM.
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| Posted 11/6/17 1:23 PM |
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GoldenRod
10 years on LIF!
Member since 11/06 26792 total posts
Name:
Shawn
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Here's a pretty good list of benefits that could come out of a Convention:
http://www.rockinst.org/nys_concon2017/Issues.aspx
Some or none of these may actually be brought to fruition, but they are options that have been mentioned by several groups as to items that we should address.
Every item that comes up, has to be voted on by us, so it's not just some backroom wheeling and dealing by politicians to line their pockets. There is the potential to fix a lot of things.
Many of the reasons being pushed to vote No, aren't actually true, and aren't even protected by the Constitution, or would be political suicide to even mention in passing.
http://www.rockinst.org/observations/galie/2017-08-09_galie.aspx
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| Posted 11/6/17 1:25 PM |
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CookiePuss
Cake from Outer Space!
Member since 5/05 14021 total posts
Name:
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
I thought this was an informative read about misconceptions
I hope people really take the time to research the proposition and where they stand on it instead of voting from a bumper stickers.
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| Posted 11/6/17 1:47 PM |
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MrsT809
LIF Adult
Member since 9/09 12167 total posts
Name:
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Voting Yes tomorrow question
Is there any info about what proposals would likely be taken on? I'm reading these resources sms have looked into all this for a while and all I'm seeing is how this and that which people might be worried about are not likely to be proposed. So what is? I also don't get the point of a lengthy and costly convention if we can add amendments without a convention anyway.
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| Posted 11/6/17 1:57 PM |
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blu6385
Member since 5/08 8351 total posts
Name:
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
So whats the bottom line about pensions? Specifically for people who are retired, NYC police, correctional officer or fire fighter? I was told to vote no so their pensions won't be on the line.
If I am going to be honest I doubt this is going to pass. Any advertimsent I have seen about this is how everyone should vote no. I havent seen one advertisement about voting yes.
I don't even really know what the whole thing is really about anyway
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| Posted 11/6/17 1:59 PM |
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MrsT809
LIF Adult
Member since 9/09 12167 total posts
Name:
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Posted by blu6385
So whats the bottom line about pensions? Specifically for people who are retired, NYC police, correctional officer or fire fighter? I was told to vote no so their pensions won't be on the line.
If I am going to be honest I doubt this is going to pass. Any advertimsent I have seen about this is how everyone should vote no. I havent seen one advertisement about voting yes.
I don't even really know what the whole thing is really about anyway
Keep in mind, on long island we're seeing a small part of the population. Upstate is likely a different story.
I hear the same regarding pensions. Goldenrod's link confused me about this yet again. It's not possible for them to touch pensions, then it sounds like yes they could but it's just not likely to be proposed, then if it were proposed it likely wouldn't be passed by voters.
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| Posted 11/6/17 2:03 PM |
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NervousNell
Just another chapter in life..
Member since 11/09 54921 total posts
Name:
..being a mommy and being a wife!
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Posted by blu6385
So whats the bottom line about pensions? Specifically for people who are retired, NYC police, correctional officer or fire fighter? I was told to vote no so their pensions won't be on the line.
If I am going to be honest I doubt this is going to pass. Any advertimsent I have seen about this is how everyone should vote no. I havent seen one advertisement about voting yes.
I don't even really know what the whole thing is really about anyway
From the link posted by Goldenrod above:
A Convention Could Not Reduce the Pensions of Current Employees and Retirees
The most irresponsible assertion being perpetrated by convention opponents is that the pensions of existing and retired public employees could “vanish” if a constitutional convention were to be held. This is patently false. Existing public employee and retiree pensions are protected by both federal and state law.
The U.S. Constitution has a provision known as the Contract Clause, which prohibits states from doing precisely what is feared — retroactively changing the terms of existing contracts. It provides:
No State shall ... make any ... Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts.
Ever since the Constitutional Convention of 1938 made public pensions contractual, the rights of each public employee have vested on the date he or she entered the system, and any impairment of those rights through elimination of pension, reduction of benefits, or unfavorable changes in the way cost of living adjustments are calculated would violate the U.S. Constitution.
Other states with similar constitutional provisions that have attempted to change the existing terms of their public employee pension programs through legislation have been routinely rebuffed by courts applying the Contract Clause. A 2013 Illinois statute that halted automatic cost of living increases for retirees, raised the retirement age for current employees, and capped the salary used in determining benefit amounts was held unconstitutional by a unanimous Illinois Supreme Court. Multiple Arizona laws adopted in 2011 that increased employee contribution rates for existing employees and altered the formula for calculating cost of living adjustments were found unconstitutional by a series of different courts.
In addition to violating the Contract Clause of the national Constitution, any attempt by a constitutional convention to retroactively reduce benefits to retirees or to adjust accrued benefits to current employees would almost certainly run afoul of the state constitution — either the due process clause, the takings clause, or the pension provision in effect when every current and retired public employee entered the system. Even if a convention were inclined to eliminate the nonimpairment provision of the state constitution, such a change would apply only to employees hired after the effective date of the change; it could not bind existing employees whose rights already have been fixed.
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| Posted 11/6/17 2:06 PM |
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blu6385
Member since 5/08 8351 total posts
Name:
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Posted by MrsT809
Posted by blu6385
So whats the bottom line about pensions? Specifically for people who are retired, NYC police, correctional officer or fire fighter? I was told to vote no so their pensions won't be on the line.
If I am going to be honest I doubt this is going to pass. Any advertimsent I have seen about this is how everyone should vote no. I havent seen one advertisement about voting yes.
I don't even really know what the whole thing is really about anyway
Keep in mind, on long island we're seeing a small part of the population. Upstate is likely a different story.
I hear the same regarding pensions. Goldenrod's link confused me about this yet again. It's not possible for them to touch pensions, then it sounds like yes they could but it's just not likely to be proposed, then if it were proposed it likely wouldn't be passed by voters.
so you think there is more avertisment in upstate NY about what this is whole thing is even about? If so I wonder why they havent done them here.
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| Posted 11/6/17 2:06 PM |
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beachbabe
LIF Adolescent
Member since 9/15 731 total posts
Name:
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Posted by blu6385
So whats the bottom line about pensions? Specifically for people who are retired, NYC police, correctional officer or fire fighter? I was told to vote no so their pensions won't be on the line.
If I am going to be honest I doubt this is going to pass. Any advertimsent I have seen about this is how everyone should vote no. I havent seen one advertisement about voting yes.
I don't even really know what the whole thing is really about anyway
I haven't see any advertisement about voting yes either. All I see are the "no" bumper stickers.
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| Posted 11/6/17 2:12 PM |
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Many people I know are voting No because the last convention, they passed nothing. They sat, and spent money, and changed nothing - not a single thing passed.
Change to the state constitution is possible without a convention. Though I honestly do not know enough about to process at this point to be more than 75% certain of my vote.
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| Posted 11/6/17 2:31 PM |
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CookiePuss
Cake from Outer Space!
Member since 5/05 14021 total posts
Name:
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Posted by LiveForMoments
Many people I know are voting No because the last convention, they passed nothing. They sat, and spent money, and changed nothing - not a single thing passed.
Change to the state constitution is possible without a convention. Though I honestly do not know enough about to process at this point to be more than 75% certain of my vote.
Research suggests that the last convention's proposals were voted down because they were all wrapped up together and voters could only vote on the whole of the proposals as opposed to each proposal. So not a single thing was passed because the proposals were not proposed singlely so it was all or none.
The convention prior to that afforded labor and worker rights that were not already available.
This is why it's so important that we each go and research instead of relying on bumper stickers and facebook postings.
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| Posted 11/6/17 2:49 PM |
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Voting Yes tomorrow question
The New York State Bar Association has been pushing for a Yes vote. They want to modernize and restructure the court systems and simplify voting registration. http://www.nysba.org/nyconstitution/
All the vote No advertising I see appears to be about fear mongering about what could happen to pensions, even though everything I've read said that current and accrued pensions would be safe. Most of the pension system is not set out in the Constitution, so it can be changed at any time and is changed frequently (hence all the tiers). The state's obligation is protected by the US Constitution.
Most of the No advertising has been from unions. I think the unions are scared that they could lose power (e.g., if NY became a right to work state). https://www.nysut.org/news/nysut-united/issues/2017/january-2017/open-the-state-constitution-heck-no
It's really a blank canvas. It depends on what delegates get elected. What proposals are put forward. Then the people vote on it. It's an opportunity to make significant changes, but there is no guarantee about what direction that change will go. Will it make NY a better place and save the state significant money (for example, by a modernized court system) or will it make NY worst off and reduce people's rights or will nothing be accomplished because we can't agree on anything? It's a large gamble with the potential for large reward, but also the potential for loss. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/05/nyregion/constitutional-convention-voting-new-york.html
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| Posted 11/6/17 2:53 PM |
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CookiePuss
Cake from Outer Space!
Member since 5/05 14021 total posts
Name:
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Posted by blu6385
Posted by MrsT809
Posted by blu6385
So whats the bottom line about pensions? Specifically for people who are retired, NYC police, correctional officer or fire fighter? I was told to vote no so their pensions won't be on the line.
If I am going to be honest I doubt this is going to pass. Any advertimsent I have seen about this is how everyone should vote no. I havent seen one advertisement about voting yes.
I don't even really know what the whole thing is really about anyway
Keep in mind, on long island we're seeing a small part of the population. Upstate is likely a different story.
I hear the same regarding pensions. Goldenrod's link confused me about this yet again. It's not possible for them to touch pensions, then it sounds like yes they could but it's just not likely to be proposed, then if it were proposed it likely wouldn't be passed by voters.
so you think there is more avertisment in upstate NY about what this is whole thing is even about? If so I wonder why they havent done them here.
Absolutely! There is a big push to tier NYS in to 3 areas and each area will govern itself. Upstate is tied to mandates and funding that does nothing for them and they vote on things like congestion and plastic bag liter.
If you look at the interest groups on both sides, you will understand why the campaign downstate is a big no.
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| Posted 11/6/17 2:53 PM |
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hmm
Sweet
Member since 1/14 8012 total posts
Name:
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Voting Yes tomorrow question
there are 3 props tomorrow, one has to do with stripping elected officials of pensions etc IF they have corruption charges against them
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| Posted 11/6/17 2:56 PM |
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CookiePuss
Cake from Outer Space!
Member since 5/05 14021 total posts
Name:
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Posted by hmm
there are 3 props tomorrow, one has to do with stripping elected officials of pensions etc IF they have corruption charges against them
That I am completely for!
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| Posted 11/6/17 3:01 PM |
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PitterPatter11
Baby Boy is Here!
Member since 5/11 7632 total posts
Name:
Momma <3
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Posted by MrsT809
Keep in mind, on long island we're seeing a small part of the population. Upstate is likely a different story.
I live upstate - Albany/Schenectady/Saratoga region - and everywhere I go it says to "Vote No" so we are hearing the same message.
Message edited 11/7/2017 7:50:20 AM.
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| Posted 11/7/17 7:46 AM |
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PitterPatter11
Baby Boy is Here!
Member since 5/11 7632 total posts
Name:
Momma <3
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Posted by CookiePuss
Posted by hmm
there are 3 props tomorrow, one has to do with stripping elected officials of pensions etc IF they have corruption charges against them
That I am completely for!
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| Posted 11/7/17 7:46 AM |
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CSK
LIF Adolescent
Member since 9/11 892 total posts
Name:
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Posted by blu6385
So whats the bottom line about pensions? Specifically for people who are retired, NYC police, correctional officer or fire fighter? I was told to vote no so their pensions won't be on the line.
If I am going to be honest I doubt this is going to pass. Any advertimsent I have seen about this is how everyone should vote no. I havent seen one advertisement about voting yes.
I don't even really know what the whole thing is really about anyway
The reason why you see all the press and adverts for voting no is that there is a significant established base of unions with money who benefit significantly from the system currently in place. They fear-monger their membership and use their collective funds to promote the system that currently serves them.
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| Posted 11/7/17 9:53 AM |
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NervousNell
Just another chapter in life..
Member since 11/09 54921 total posts
Name:
..being a mommy and being a wife!
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Posted by CSK
Posted by blu6385
So whats the bottom line about pensions? Specifically for people who are retired, NYC police, correctional officer or fire fighter? I was told to vote no so their pensions won't be on the line.
If I am going to be honest I doubt this is going to pass. Any advertimsent I have seen about this is how everyone should vote no. I havent seen one advertisement about voting yes.
I don't even really know what the whole thing is really about anyway
The reason why you see all the press and adverts for voting no is that there is a significant established base of unions with money who benefit significantly from the system currently in place. They fear-monger their membership and use their collective funds to promote the system that currently serves them.
And from what I am reading, the pensions of current and past union members can NOT be reduced or changed by a Constitutional Convention as it is also protected by federal law. (see excerpt that I posted above)
So I think it's a huge misconception that just grew bigger and bigger and morphed into this idea that people could lose their pensions. Like a rampant game of telephone gone bad.
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| Posted 11/7/17 9:55 AM |
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beachbabe
LIF Adolescent
Member since 9/15 731 total posts
Name:
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by CSK
Posted by blu6385
So whats the bottom line about pensions? Specifically for people who are retired, NYC police, correctional officer or fire fighter? I was told to vote no so their pensions won't be on the line.
If I am going to be honest I doubt this is going to pass. Any advertimsent I have seen about this is how everyone should vote no. I havent seen one advertisement about voting yes.
I don't even really know what the whole thing is really about anyway
The reason why you see all the press and adverts for voting no is that there is a significant established base of unions with money who benefit significantly from the system currently in place. They fear-monger their membership and use their collective funds to promote the system that currently serves them.
And from what I am reading, the pensions of current and past union members can NOT be reduced or changed by a Constitutional Convention as it is also protected by federal law. (see excerpt that I posted above)
So I think it's a huge misconception that just grew bigger and bigger and morphed into this idea that people could lose their pensions. Like a rampant game of telephone gone bad.
That's crazy! All these people are voting no based on a giant misconception
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| Posted 11/7/17 11:15 AM |
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NervousNell
Just another chapter in life..
Member since 11/09 54921 total posts
Name:
..being a mommy and being a wife!
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Posted by beachbabe
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by CSK
Posted by blu6385
So whats the bottom line about pensions? Specifically for people who are retired, NYC police, correctional officer or fire fighter? I was told to vote no so their pensions won't be on the line.
If I am going to be honest I doubt this is going to pass. Any advertimsent I have seen about this is how everyone should vote no. I havent seen one advertisement about voting yes.
I don't even really know what the whole thing is really about anyway
The reason why you see all the press and adverts for voting no is that there is a significant established base of unions with money who benefit significantly from the system currently in place. They fear-monger their membership and use their collective funds to promote the system that currently serves them.
And from what I am reading, the pensions of current and past union members can NOT be reduced or changed by a Constitutional Convention as it is also protected by federal law. (see excerpt that I posted above)
So I think it's a huge misconception that just grew bigger and bigger and morphed into this idea that people could lose their pensions. Like a rampant game of telephone gone bad.
That's crazy! All these people are voting no based on a giant misconception
From what i can tell, yes.
But you know how it is in this day and age... one person posts something on FB and then one person shares it without doing any research into it's validity, and so on and so on and next thing you know it's God's truth and there is mass panic in the streets.
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| Posted 11/7/17 11:24 AM |
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blu6385
Member since 5/08 8351 total posts
Name:
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by beachbabe
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by CSK
Posted by blu6385
So whats the bottom line about pensions? Specifically for people who are retired, NYC police, correctional officer or fire fighter? I was told to vote no so their pensions won't be on the line.
If I am going to be honest I doubt this is going to pass. Any advertimsent I have seen about this is how everyone should vote no. I havent seen one advertisement about voting yes.
I don't even really know what the whole thing is really about anyway
The reason why you see all the press and adverts for voting no is that there is a significant established base of unions with money who benefit significantly from the system currently in place. They fear-monger their membership and use their collective funds to promote the system that currently serves them.
And from what I am reading, the pensions of current and past union members can NOT be reduced or changed by a Constitutional Convention as it is also protected by federal law. (see excerpt that I posted above)
So I think it's a huge misconception that just grew bigger and bigger and morphed into this idea that people could lose their pensions. Like a rampant game of telephone gone bad.
That's crazy! All these people are voting no based on a giant misconception
From what i can tell, yes.
But you know how it is in this day and age... one person posts something on FB and then one person shares it without doing any research into it's validity, and so on and so on and next thing you know it's God's truth and there is mass panic in the streets.
from what I am being told by people who say to vote no is that the pension are protected currently but they can vote to change the Constitution to no longer protect it anymore and that's why they are voting no and telling people to vote no!
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| Posted 11/7/17 1:42 PM |
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mrsrainbow
LIF Adult
Member since 1/17 1465 total posts
Name:
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Posted by beachbabe
Posted by NervousNell
Posted by CSK
Posted by blu6385
So whats the bottom line about pensions? Specifically for people who are retired, NYC police, correctional officer or fire fighter? I was told to vote no so their pensions won't be on the line.
If I am going to be honest I doubt this is going to pass. Any advertimsent I have seen about this is how everyone should vote no. I havent seen one advertisement about voting yes.
I don't even really know what the whole thing is really about anyway
The reason why you see all the press and adverts for voting no is that there is a significant established base of unions with money who benefit significantly from the system currently in place. They fear-monger their membership and use their collective funds to promote the system that currently serves them.
And from what I am reading, the pensions of current and past union members can NOT be reduced or changed by a Constitutional Convention as it is also protected by federal law. (see excerpt that I posted above)
So I think it's a huge misconception that just grew bigger and bigger and morphed into this idea that people could lose their pensions. Like a rampant game of telephone gone bad.
That's crazy! All these people are voting no based on a giant misconception
The unions got ahead of everything and put out this fear - I have a feeling it won't pass anyway, but it doesn't help the spread of misinformation. I know a lot of people who are voting yes because the pensions are protected.
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| Posted 11/7/17 1:51 PM |
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GoldenRod
10 years on LIF!
Member since 11/06 26792 total posts
Name:
Shawn
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Re: Voting Yes tomorrow question
Posted by blu6385
...
from what I am being told by people who say to vote no is that the pension are protected currently but they can vote to change the Constitution to no longer protect it anymore and that's why they are voting no and telling people to vote no!
http://www.lwvny.org/programs-studies/concon/2017/Press-Pension-reform_041117.pdf
Pension benefits. The New York Constitution makes public employee pension benefits
contractual and protects them from impairment. Any attempt by a convention to reduce
benefits to retirees or to take accrued benefits from current employees would almost
certainly violate the Contract Clause of the national Constitution. Even if a convention
eliminated the state constitutional protection for pensions, the U.S. Constitution would
require that such changes applied only to employees hired after the effective date of any
such change.
The state has made numerous changes over the course of time to the pension system for
future employees. The most recent revision was in 2012, when the legislature put in
place a new Tier (Tier VI) and significantly altered the pension conditions for employees
joining the retirement system on or after April 1, 2016 (while not affecting existing
employees and retirees). In 2017, New Yorkers will vote on a constitutional proposition
that would allow pensions to be taken from public officials who have been convicted of a
felony related to their public office.
Basically, Federal law prohibits NY from touching the pensions of existing employees.
At ANY time, NY can touch the pensions of future hires, but not existing employees.
Voting no to protect your pension is fear-mongering and misinformation.
If someone wants to vote no, that's their right, but they should really know the actual facts of why they are voting.
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| Posted 11/7/17 2:00 PM |
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