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QuoteTheRaven424
22 Months?!!!!
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And If That Isn't A True Blue Miracle
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Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
Not very often I actually post a serious, thought-provoking topic
I am slammed at work today, so I will read responses later tonight.
Bear in mind, I am as Catholic and as religious as they come.
The pope coming in resulted in alot of fanfare. People put alot of stock in him, as being as close to God and Jesus, in the Catholic faith, as one can be.
People want to touch him and see him, because they believe they are seeing Jesus.
I'm fine with that - some people need that visual representation. And I thought yesterday was awesome
But, realistically, he was given this title, by men - he was elected to the position. It wasn't like he received the calling from God to say - I want you encapsulate my image.
I guess what I'm trying to say is - what makes the pope above any other "man of the cloth?" - since he was elected by man?
The Bible teaches that doesn't have a lifeform, and that he is present in everyone, particularly those that appear to us in need. How can the full embodiment be assigned to one man? Or am I missing something?
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Posted 4/21/08 2:34 PM  |
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KartveliT
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
I am not catholic I am an orthodox Christian and I had the same questions yesterday, I 'd like to see how people reply to this.
Message edited 4/21/2008 2:45:31 PM.
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| Posted 4/21/08 2:44 PM |
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DaniJude
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Danielle
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
I agree with you - I've never thought anything spectacular of the Pope - I think very highly of him as I do other people of my religion but to think that seeing/touching him is like seeing/touching Jesus is a little much, IMO. I don't think I would feel as though I just saw Jesus if I met the Pope. I do think that he holds a very high position because the church makes it out to be that he was elected from a group of many others to be the best representation for our religion and what it means to be Catholic. To me, he's not more than that.
...but, that is still very special. That he was chosen out of so many says something - that he, apparently, is an important man.
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| Posted 4/21/08 2:47 PM |
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MrsMerlot
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
Posted by QuoteTheRaven424
People want to touch him and see him, because they believe they are seeing Jesus.
I completely understand your questioning...but what I don't understand is this statement...I don't think that's an accurate representation as to why people want to touch or see the Pope....
I will throw this out there - The disciplines (as men/women) were chosen by Jesus (as man) to follow, build "His" Church, and spread the word...
So aren't they really priests/bishops - ie: people (physical) to carry on The Word of the Lord?
Yes, the Pope is selected by man and for Catholics it's the highest honor - but there is nothing in that position that represents a form of God/Jesus.
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| Posted 4/21/08 2:47 PM |
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jxnoscar
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
I was raised Roman Catholic
I believe in Jesus, Mary and God.
As for the church and their rules--I have a difficult time accepting them.
I will raise my kids to be spirtiual, but not believe the Pope is "the next best thing" to Jesus. My mother would have a heart attack if she knew how I really felt...
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| Posted 4/21/08 2:49 PM |
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CathyB
Member since 5/05 19403 total posts
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
I have a cousin who is very religious, now that she's retired she goes on missions to Africa to spread the word, so I think she's pretty well read on the subject. Anyhow, I asked her 3 years ago about the voting process when Pope Benedict XVI was elected she told me that the belief is that the Holy Spirit moves the Cardinals to vote that way, so in essence he was chosen by God.
HTH! 
ETA: I actually think it's a lot more political than that, but if that's what helps her accept him as the Vicar of Christ I can understand the rationale.
Message edited 4/21/2008 2:53:52 PM.
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| Posted 4/21/08 2:50 PM |
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BabyAvocado
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
I agree with you.
The Pope is just a man. Probably a very good and pious man (yes, I said probably), but a man nevertheless. And more importantly, like you said, elected to this position by other men.
But I may be the wrong person to discuss this with. I see alot of things within the Catholic church and their carrying out of the faith that to me, borders on idolatry hence going completely against commandment one.
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| Posted 4/21/08 2:54 PM |
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jxnoscar
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Nancy
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
TA--The Pope wears Prada shoes.
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| Posted 4/21/08 2:55 PM |
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MsMBV
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
I questioned this exact thing when I was at St. John's. I want to preface my answer by stating that I am not a practising catholic, but I was baptised.
Somewhere along the way, about 300 years after the birth of Christ, men began to put "rules" on the practise of Catholicism (well, all christianity, b.c the reformation had not happened yet). Basically that is when the Ecumenical Councils began, and the "men" of the highest hierarchy in the church began to essentially meet and decide/agree on what the rest of the catholic world would belive/respect/practise, etc. The councils have gone one for years, and still do in recent years.
During the Council of Nicea, I believe, during the time of the Roman Empire, it was determined that Christ was both human and divine. Overwhelmighly so. Bishops from the entire of the known world (exept Britan) were in attendance and I believe only 2 or 3 bishops voted that Jesus was not divine. I believe it is from this original decision of divinity, and precedent of setting doctrine that the bishops eventually were able to claim the Pope Infallible. Also, I am pretty sure that it is not just an "election," I vaguely remember somewhere that there has to be an Apostolic Succession, which relates back to the historic person, St. Peter. And also the cardinals who vote are alleged to be divinely moved to vote and "discover" the Pope's divine spirit.
I'll see if I can find this info & update if I can.
Message edited 4/21/2008 2:59:53 PM.
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| Posted 4/21/08 2:57 PM |
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GioiaMia
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
I think there are many factors at work here.
As mentioned before there is the idea that the Pope is of the direct line of St Peter - who was chosen to lead the first church.
As was also mentioned, the Holy Spirit chooses the Pope - working THROUGH the cardinals, so he is chosen by the Holy Spirit.
Is the Pope closer to God then I am? I truly believe that he "has God's ear." HOWEVER, he is entirely 100% human and flawed. He "technically" is not any closer to God or Jesus than I am. We ALL have the potential to develop that relationship with God if we CHOOSE to.
Now, why do people adore him? I cannot explain it in words. But, being in the presence of Pope John Paul II was the most overwhelming, life changing experience. You *FEEL* the presence of God in these men. You FEEL their devotion to God and to the Church and it is truly breathtaking.
The Pope brings Hope. People just want to be in his presence - just to feel a little piece of God.
I guess I was all over the place with this post. I started off with official church teachings but ended with personal feelings and emotions. I think this is because of Pope John Paul II - he was the first Pope (IMO) that people thought "That is OUR Pope."
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| Posted 4/21/08 3:22 PM |
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CkGm
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
I was raised as Catholic as can be, my mom works at a Catholic HS and is so excited over his visit but to be honest, it does nothing for me. He is more a political figure than a religious one to me. I do not see him as any closer to God as say, my grandmother who is very devote and prays every day.
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| Posted 4/21/08 3:30 PM |
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MsMBV
:P
Member since 5/05 28602 total posts
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Me
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
Just to clarify, Papal infallability does not imply that the pope is perfect. Papal Infallability refers to the Pope being able to declare catholic Dogma, and if he choses to declare a dogmatic teaching that is borne from divine revelation, thereby being Infallabile as a vehichle for the voice of God.
If her were not subject to sin, he would be impeccable, which is solely reserved in Catholic teachings for God and Jesus Christ. I am not sure, but I do not believe that Mary was declared impeccable b/c she birthed the christ.
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| Posted 4/21/08 3:31 PM |
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MrsMessina
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
Posted by jxnoscar
I was raised Roman Catholic
I believe in Jesus, Mary and God.
As for the church and their rules--I have a difficult time accepting them.
I will raise my kids to be spirtiual, but not believe the Pope is "the next best thing" to Jesus. My mother would have a heart attack if she knew how I really felt...
ITA w. this. I've had my doubts if God even exisits lately, but that's from my own personal things that I'm going thru and have watched others go thru... I just can't understand if there's a just God how certain things happen (or in my case and some others- DON'T happen). My dh goes to a Christian fellowship church and it's VERY different than Catholic church. We were both raised Catholic and I found it very difficult to go to this Church in the beginning- but I really like the people there and agree with a lot of their views more than the views I was brought up to believe.
Message edited 4/21/2008 3:47:47 PM.
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| Posted 4/21/08 3:46 PM |
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GioiaMia
Let's Go Rangers!
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
Posted by MsMBV
Just to clarify, Papal infallability does not imply that the pope is perfect. Papal Infallability refers to the Pope being able to declare catholic Dogma, and if he choses to declare a dogmatic teaching that is borne from divine revelation, thereby being Infallabile as a vehichle for the voice of God.
If her were not subject to sin, he would be impeccable, which is solely reserved in Catholic teachings for God and Jesus Christ. I am not sure, but I do not believe that Mary was declared impeccable b/c she birthed the christ.
Mary was born without original sin. We celebrate this at the Feast of the Immaculate Conception. However, after that point - she could have been a sinner like anyone else. She just did not need baptism to cleanse her of original sin.
ETA: great point about infallibility!
Message edited 4/21/2008 3:53:29 PM.
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| Posted 4/21/08 3:52 PM |
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HoneyBadger
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
Posted by MsMBV
I am not sure, but I do not believe that Mary was declared impeccable b/c she birthed the christ.
I'm not sure about this statement I thought the Blessed Mother was considered to have lived w/o sin and was even conceived through the Immaculate Conception.
Found this on Wiki...
The Immaculate Conception is, according to Roman Catholic dogma, the conception of Mary, the mother of Jesus without any stain of original sin, in her mother's womb: the dogma thus says that, from the first moment of her existence, she was preserved by God from the lack of sanctifying grace that afflicts mankind, and that she was instead filled with divine grace.
It is further believed that she lived a life completely free from sin.
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| Posted 4/21/08 3:59 PM |
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GioiaMia
Let's Go Rangers!
Member since 1/07 14818 total posts
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
Posted by Jennie0898
Posted by MsMBV
I am not sure, but I do not believe that Mary was declared impeccable b/c she birthed the christ.
I'm not sure about this statement I thought the Blessed Mother was considered to have lived w/o sin and was even conceived through the Immaculate Conception.
Found this on Wiki...
The Immaculate Conception is, according to Roman Catholic dogma, the conception of Mary, the mother of Jesus without any stain of original sin, in her mother's womb: the dogma thus says that, from the first moment of her existence, she was preserved by God from the lack of sanctifying grace that afflicts mankind, and that she was instead filled with divine grace.
It is further believed that she lived a life completely free from sin.
Hmmm. . . I have to go home now but I will look into this. I am pretty sure that no human has ever been without sin.
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| Posted 4/21/08 4:03 PM |
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HoneyBadger
YourWorstNightmare.
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
Posted by Tilde
Posted by Jennie0898
Posted by MsMBV
I am not sure, but I do not believe that Mary was declared impeccable b/c she birthed the christ.
I'm not sure about this statement I thought the Blessed Mother was considered to have lived w/o sin and was even conceived through the Immaculate Conception.
Found this on Wiki...
The Immaculate Conception is, according to Roman Catholic dogma, the conception of Mary, the mother of Jesus without any stain of original sin, in her mother's womb: the dogma thus says that, from the first moment of her existence, she was preserved by God from the lack of sanctifying grace that afflicts mankind, and that she was instead filled with divine grace.
It is further believed that she lived a life completely free from sin.
Hmmm. . . I have to go home now but I will look into this. I am pretty sure that no human has ever been without sin.
I am the furthest thing from religous so you could be absolutely correct and I could be 100% wrong.
I just remembered something about the Immaculate Conception and so I looked it up.
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| Posted 4/21/08 4:11 PM |
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sfp0701
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Tricia
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
Well technically the men didn't choose him. They were told by god who to choose. That is what Catholics technically believe. Personally, people may believe different but when he was chose I remember the media saying the would choose someone "old" or someone black.. yadda yadda and I remember the priests getting angry and saying "they don't choose", they come together and pray and God or the Holy Spirit tells them who to choose.
The pope is condidered to be a direct desendent of the apostles. (St. Peter I believe)
Message edited 4/21/2008 4:28:09 PM.
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| Posted 4/21/08 4:23 PM |
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MST9106
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
Posted by jxnoscar
TA--The Pope wears Prada shoes.
Im sorry but I have to  Are you talking about the red ones?
I kind of understand why you're feeling this way, as I must say, I feel a little bit differently about this Pope than I did about John Paul II...yes, bc he was Polish, and I felt that closeness to him on many levels...not only bc the fact that he was Polish and a Pope, a leader of the church. And it definitely has a lot to do with the way I was bought up...he was looked up as an icon, but not only bc he was a Pope and Polish, but bc he was the first non-Italian Pope to be elected EVER, which was unheard of back then, and bc he was an intellectual and a Good Samaritan who played a major role in the fight against Communism in Poland. He was also known for healing people etc., which I'm not quite sure about. With that said, now that I am an adult, and with the passing of John Paul II and the election of Benedict, I see him strictly as a leader of our church. Thats it...Maybe bc he is fairly new and I am not that familiar with his teachings and his sermons. But I guess the bottom line is that I would expect the Pope to be a lot more than just a "leader" of the church. I would expect him to voice his opinion on controversial topics, to speak up for the opressed, etc...but I guess everyone is different...even though we share the same faith.
Message edited 4/21/2008 4:50:05 PM.
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| Posted 4/21/08 4:33 PM |
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Ginger123
Sooo happy
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dana
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
I am 16 years of catholic school speaking and I dont get it either. I am very interested in the responses. I am glad he gives people hope, peace etc I may not get it but I am glad it brings out the good 
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| Posted 4/21/08 4:42 PM |
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Kara
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
Posted by Jennie0898
Posted by Tilde
Posted by Jennie0898
Posted by MsMBV
I am not sure, but I do not believe that Mary was declared impeccable b/c she birthed the christ.
I'm not sure about this statement I thought the Blessed Mother was considered to have lived w/o sin and was even conceived through the Immaculate Conception.
Found this on Wiki...
The Immaculate Conception is, according to Roman Catholic dogma, the conception of Mary, the mother of Jesus without any stain of original sin, in her mother's womb: the dogma thus says that, from the first moment of her existence, she was preserved by God from the lack of sanctifying grace that afflicts mankind, and that she was instead filled with divine grace.
It is further believed that she lived a life completely free from sin.
Hmmm. . . I have to go home now but I will look into this. I am pretty sure that no human has ever been without sin.
I am the furthest thing from religous so you could be absolutely correct and I could be 100% wrong.
I just remembered something about the Immaculate Conception and so I looked it up.
Mary was conceived without original sin. I hate Wikipedia (b/c it's often incorrect), so here's another cite for you: Catholic.com
The Immaculate Conception is indeed the idea that Mary was conceived without original sin... but I've got no idea if she was believed to have lived without sin her entire life. If you find out, please let me know.
ETF typo
Message edited 4/21/2008 5:00:55 PM.
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| Posted 4/21/08 4:59 PM |
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HoneyBadger
YourWorstNightmare.
Member since 10/06 15979 total posts
Name:
BahBahBlackJeep
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
Posted by Kara
Posted by Jennie0898
Posted by Tilde
Posted by Jennie0898
Posted by MsMBV
I am not sure, but I do not believe that Mary was declared impeccable b/c she birthed the christ.
I'm not sure about this statement I thought the Blessed Mother was considered to have lived w/o sin and was even conceived through the Immaculate Conception.
Found this on Wiki...
The Immaculate Conception is, according to Roman Catholic dogma, the conception of Mary, the mother of Jesus without any stain of original sin, in her mother's womb: the dogma thus says that, from the first moment of her existence, she was preserved by God from the lack of sanctifying grace that afflicts mankind, and that she was instead filled with divine grace.
It is further believed that she lived a life completely free from sin.
Hmmm. . . I have to go home now but I will look into this. I am pretty sure that no human has ever been without sin.
I am the furthest thing from religous so you could be absolutely correct and I could be 100% wrong.
I just remembered something about the Immaculate Conception and so I looked it up.
Mary was conceived without original sin. I hate Wikipedia (b/c it's often incorrect), so here's another cite for you: Catholic.com
The Immaculate Conception is indeed the idea that Mary was conceived without original sin.
ETF typo
Thanks for the back up. I'm not normally a fan of Wiki, but it seemed to fall in line with what I recalled.
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| Posted 4/21/08 5:00 PM |
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MST9106
My life:)
Member since 6/06 9589 total posts
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
Posted by Kara
Posted by Jennie0898
Posted by Tilde
Posted by Jennie0898
Posted by MsMBV
I am not sure, but I do not believe that Mary was declared impeccable b/c she birthed the christ.
I'm not sure about this statement I thought the Blessed Mother was considered to have lived w/o sin and was even conceived through the Immaculate Conception.
Found this on Wiki...
The Immaculate Conception is, according to Roman Catholic dogma, the conception of Mary, the mother of Jesus without any stain of original sin, in her mother's womb: the dogma thus says that, from the first moment of her existence, she was preserved by God from the lack of sanctifying grace that afflicts mankind, and that she was instead filled with divine grace.
It is further believed that she lived a life completely free from sin.
Hmmm. . . I have to go home now but I will look into this. I am pretty sure that no human has ever been without sin.
I am the furthest thing from religous so you could be absolutely correct and I could be 100% wrong.
I just remembered something about the Immaculate Conception and so I looked it up.
Mary was conceived without original sin. I hate Wikipedia (b/c it's often incorrect), so here's another cite for you: Catholic.com
The Immaculate Conception is indeed the idea that Mary was conceived without original sin.
ETF typo
I agree...at least thats what I was thought in religion...
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| Posted 4/21/08 5:01 PM |
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MeNBobs
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Member since 4/07 3765 total posts
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
Posted by MST9106
Posted by jxnoscar
TA--The Pope wears Prada shoes.
Im sorry but I have to Are you talking about the red ones?
The most widely publicized papal branding event appears to have been the result of mistaken identity.
Over the past few months, scores of media reports have dubbed Benedict XVI the "Prada Pope," crediting the Italian fashion house with having made the pope's eye-catching red loafers.
The senior Vatican official says the loafers were actually made by the pope's personal cobbler. But Prada has refused to confirm or deny the reports, allowing the press speculation to continue. A spokesman for Prada said the fashion house lacked "the necessary elements" to make an accurate determination.
Wall Street Journal
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| Posted 4/21/08 5:07 PM |
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Little-J-Mommy
I'm a Big Brother
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Name:
D
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Re: Catholics: Something I was struggling with last week...
Posted by dediko
I am not catholic I am an orthodox Christian and I had the same questions yesterday, I 'd like to see how people reply to this.
same here.
I just want to add that I'm surprisingly impressed at how you all engaged in what could be a potentially heated topic. Bravo!!
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| Posted 4/21/08 5:25 PM |
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