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xosweetiexo
LIF Adolescent
Member since 8/09 856 total posts
Name:
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Arie Gal on cbs news - STAR tax rebate
Just saw that guy everyone was talking about... The scam with the star rebate... I caught the end of it but something about him FINALLY being shutdown by the attorney general.
ETA: I forgot I can rewind live tv lol! They said the attorney general is demanding that he repay back homeowners! I know many people were scammed on LIF by this loser...Was anyone else watching this too??
https://www.google.com/amp/www.syracuse.com/articles/20039127/ny_attorney_general_company_tricked_people_into_paying_for_free_star_tax_rebate.amp
Message edited 1/26/2017 5:31:45 PM.
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Posted 1/26/17 5:21 PM  |
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gina409
TWINS!
Member since 12/09 27635 total posts
Name:
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Re: Arie Gal on cbs news - STAR tax rebate
I would love o get the 1500 he stole from us 
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| Posted 1/26/17 6:10 PM |
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ave1024
I Took The Wrong Road
Member since 12/07 6153 total posts
Name:
That Led To The Wrong Tendencies
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Re: Arie Gal on cbs news - STAR tax rebate
While it sucks for people who fell for this, I don't see how this is illegal or how the AG can sue.
- Charging a fee for service (any service) is not illegal
- The company name star exemption adviser is not illegal to use
- The letters sent to homeowners clearly say there is a fee to use, it states what the fee is, that the homeowner can do the work themselves, and they are a third party
- He has won cases in small claims court because again what he is doing is not illegal. People are signing legally binding contracts with him.
This is no different than somebody using a company to grieve taxes or to hire any other service. You can grieve taxes on your own for free. Doesn't make what they do illegal either.
People need to read the fine print on things they sign and agree to. I get junk all the time. I am currently getting invoices from some yellow pages scam company saying I owe them $3000 and I have to pay immediately. Letters even say "debt collection notice" on them. They have been sending me bills for $300 every quarter since 2014 and the money I owe them keeps accumulating. You would think if I didnt pay after 2014 they would stop billing me for their "service". But I know it's junk. Reason #2 I know it's junk, their return envelope I get from them to send the payment requires I use a stamp. It's not prepaid. If it was, i'd slap the envelope onto a box filled with bricks. Or maybe dirty diapers from my son. 
Maybe some people pay which keeps people like this guy in business. If we all stopped paying this guy he would go away.
I am shocked the AG was able to seize his assets and freeze his business. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty. I won't be surprised if Arie Gal comes back with a huge counter suit against the state and ends up making even more money. If he somehow manages to lose, he can easily open business under another name. This isn't going away unless NYS decides to just end the STAR program.
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| Posted 1/26/17 6:58 PM |
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DWKS810
LIF Adolescent
Member since 3/09 554 total posts
Name:
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Re: Arie Gal on cbs news - STAR tax rebate
Are you an attorney? Just curious.
There is a concept in contract law called "unconscionability". This basically means that even if a contract exists, the court should not enforce it if it is unconscionable - which means it is so unfairly skewed to benefit one side that it "shocks the conscience".
Basically, this guy created a scam where he duped people into signing these "contracts". He knew at the time that he sent out these mailings that people would think it was legitimate mail coming from the county, by making it look just "official" enough to fool them. His entire enterprise was built on taking advantage of people not realizing what they were entering into. The whole idea behind contractual agreements is that the two parties reach a bargain and enter into an agreement that suits both their purposes - yes, sometimes someone enters into a somewhat unbalanced bargain,and within reason that is their right, and their obligation to know what they are entering into to a degree. But when a contract is basically designed to victimize people - where the one party knows that no one in their right mind would enter into such an agreement, and it's basically relying on a degree of trickery, then that is not what a contract is meant to be. You are not supposed to be tricked into signing a contract. New homeowners get a deluge of mail and it appears most people mistakenly thought this was part of the free service offered... if SO many people fell for it that the AG's office got involved, then I believe there's a strong case for this being unconscionable. It's certainly what I believe, and it's provided for in the laws of our state.
There are lots of contracts that can't be enforced for all kinds reasons. Contracts to donate your organs... contracts to adopt a child before they are actually born... you can't make a contract with someone that you will harm yourself if you lose a bet... just because you sign a contract does not mean it's automatically enforceable.
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| Posted 1/30/17 6:43 PM |
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DWKS810
LIF Adolescent
Member since 3/09 554 total posts
Name:
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Re: Arie Gal on cbs news - STAR tax rebate
Posted by ave1024
Maybe some people pay which keeps people like this guy in business. If we all stopped paying this guy he would go away.
I am shocked the AG was able to seize his assets and freeze his business. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty. I won't be surprised if Arie Gal comes back with a huge counter suit against the state and ends up making even more money. If he somehow manages to lose, he can easily open business under another name. This isn't going away unless NYS decides to just end the STAR program.
Also - people paid this in many cases because he took them to small claims court and won. If you do that, you can enforce the judgment through the sheriff to garnish wages, freeze bank accounts, etc. to collect the judgment amount.
And I don't see why the elimination of the STAR program is the only way to get around this... if found guilty he will likely be prohibited from engaging in this type of business again, probably as part of a settlement agreement.
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| Posted 1/30/17 6:46 PM |
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seaside
LIF Adult
Member since 6/08 3101 total posts
Name:
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Re: Arie Gal on cbs news - STAR tax rebate
Posted by DWKS810
Are you an attorney? Just curious.
There is a concept in contract law called "unconscionability". This basically means that even if a contract exists, the court should not enforce it if it is unconscionable - which means it is so unfairly skewed to benefit one side that it "shocks the conscience".
Basically, this guy created a scam where he duped people into signing these "contracts". He knew at the time that he sent out these mailings that people would think it was legitimate mail coming from the county, by making it look just "official" enough to fool them. His entire enterprise was built on taking advantage of people not realizing what they were entering into. The whole idea behind contractual agreements is that the two parties reach a bargain and enter into an agreement that suits both their purposes - yes, sometimes someone enters into a somewhat unbalanced bargain,and within reason that is their right, and their obligation to know what they are entering into to a degree. But when a contract is basically designed to victimize people - where the one party knows that no one in their right mind would enter into such an agreement, and it's basically relying on a degree of trickery, then that is not what a contract is meant to be. You are not supposed to be tricked into signing a contract. New homeowners get a deluge of mail and it appears most people mistakenly thought this was part of the free service offered... if SO many people fell for it that the AG's office got involved, then I believe there's a strong case for this being unconscionable. It's certainly what I believe, and it's provided for in the laws of our state.
There are lots of contracts that can't be enforced for all kinds reasons. Contracts to donate your organs... contracts to adopt a child before they are actually born... you can't make a contract with someone that you will harm yourself if you lose a bet... just because you sign a contract does not mean it's automatically enforceable.
I have been saying that forever. And I know nothing about this case and would not attempt to practice law on the internet, but hypothetically, fraud is a defense to contract too, and if you impersonate the government so well and hide the fees so well that you would fool a reasonable person who would never normally agree to something so against his interest, theoretically you can also get a court to void a contract. No idea about this case per se, but people were way too quick to say that there was no way out.
I hope these small claims judges knew what they were doing. Maybe something will change now.
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| Posted 1/30/17 7:15 PM |
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ave1024
I Took The Wrong Road
Member since 12/07 6153 total posts
Name:
That Led To The Wrong Tendencies
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Re: Arie Gal on cbs news - STAR tax rebate
Posted by DWKS810
Are you an attorney? Just curious.
There is a concept in contract law called "unconscionability". This basically means that even if a contract exists, the court should not enforce it if it is unconscionable - which means it is so unfairly skewed to benefit one side that it "shocks the conscience".
Well let me ask, are you an attorney? I am going to guess yes since you must be if you are asking me the question.
So as an attorney, where do you draw the line as to what is considered unconscionability? While I agree with your other points that this guy is obviously trying to dupe people into signing with him, the homeowners are signing with him to perform a service.
As I stated earlier, what makes this any different than somebody paying somebody to grieve taxes? Or mow my lawn? Or take my mail out of my mailbox and read it to me? Or answer my phone calls? Or get me my morning coffee and serve it to me in a spoon while fanning me with your other arm while I law down and watch Trump on TV?
Where do you draw the line regarding what do you consider a "service" and what is considered unconscionability? Nothing he has done is technically illegal. Good luck trying to prove unconscionability with this. Color me shocked if they manage to pull this one off. Schniderman is simply looking for good press. When is he due for re-election?
And to use your other example regarding selling organs. Selling organs doesn't fall under unconscionability. It falls under violation of the National Organ Transplant Act. It's illegal to sell organs.
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| Posted 1/30/17 7:27 PM |
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WonderLady
LIF Infant
Member since 1/15 355 total posts
Name:
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Arie Gal on cbs news - STAR tax rebate
The difference is that the intention is for the paperwork to trick people.
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| Posted 1/30/17 8:58 PM |
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seaside
LIF Adult
Member since 6/08 3101 total posts
Name:
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Re: Arie Gal on cbs news - STAR tax rebate
So the answer to your question is that literally no person in their right mind would fill out Gal's form to pay him to do this when "doing this" is no more effort than filling out the form. There is no value added, not even from a subjective standpoint (like paying more for a brand name when the products are identical.) Add in how much the document was deliberately made to look like the actual government/rebate itself, and a very good fraud and/or unconscionability case may be made.
You can contract for whatever you want, but if you're reasonably prudent and you're still fooled, you're not supposed to get tricked into contracing for something that you don't want.
I'm not saying that the case is a winner (don't know enough), but there are doctrines that exist to deal with fraud and unconscionability.
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| Posted 1/31/17 11:33 AM |
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chilltocam
LIF Adult
Member since 11/11 9141 total posts
Name:
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Re: Arie Gal on cbs news - STAR tax rebate
Posted by ave1024
Posted by DWKS810
Are you an attorney? Just curious.
There is a concept in contract law called "unconscionability". This basically means that even if a contract exists, the court should not enforce it if it is unconscionable - which means it is so unfairly skewed to benefit one side that it "shocks the conscience".
So as an attorney, where do you draw the line as to what is considered unconscionability?
That's why we have courts - they (judge or jury) will decide what is considered unconscionable - based on various laws, including consumer protection laws. Not everything (or really almost nothing) in the law is black and white
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| Posted 1/31/17 12:01 PM |
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ave1024
I Took The Wrong Road
Member since 12/07 6153 total posts
Name:
That Led To The Wrong Tendencies
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Re: Arie Gal on cbs news - STAR tax rebate
Posted by seaside
There is no value added, not even from a subjective standpoint (like paying more for a brand name when the products are identical.)
The value is he is notifying you that you haven't filed for STAR yet. There are people that legit forget to apply. I've seen threads here about it.
Posted by seaside
Add in how much the document was deliberately made to look like the actual government/rebate itself, and a very good fraud and/or unconscionability case may be made.
OK i'll play this game. Tell me how his letter looks like a government notice. You argue for the government. I'll state my case as the defending attorney.
http://www.governor.ny.gov/sites/governor.ny.gov/files/archive/assets/documents/STARScamRedacted02.pdf
- He is notifying a homeowner that they may have not filed for STAR on their own
- He says right from the start he is an agent and he can do this work FOR YOU.
- First line he clearly says you can do this on your own and you do not need any service!
- He clearly states in bold and underline that he is NOT affiliated with the government
- He clearly states the services involved on how he searches for properties who haven't filed for STAR
- He clearly states again in bold and underline that there is a fee for his service.
- He clearly states that signing the form designates him as your agent and you can file for STAR yourself but you are choosing again in bold Star Exemption Advisor to file for you.
- He gives the required 5 day opt out clause (which I think is only 3 days but he is giving 5).
So after reading all of this, if you still choose to use this guy... I really have no further comment. He gives you so many opportunities to not sign with him and he states in multiple places he is not affiliated with the state and you can do this on your own.
I hate to be harsh here, but do we really need to protect people from their own stupidity? And if that's the case, my original point stands... where do we draw the line?
Maybe we should put this guy out of business by NOT using him!
Message edited 2/1/2017 9:51:50 AM.
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| Posted 2/1/17 9:48 AM |
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ave1024
I Took The Wrong Road
Member since 12/07 6153 total posts
Name:
That Led To The Wrong Tendencies
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Re: Arie Gal on cbs news - STAR tax rebate
Posted by chilltocam
Posted by ave1024
Posted by DWKS810
Are you an attorney? Just curious.
There is a concept in contract law called "unconscionability". This basically means that even if a contract exists, the court should not enforce it if it is unconscionable - which means it is so unfairly skewed to benefit one side that it "shocks the conscience".
So as an attorney, where do you draw the line as to what is considered unconscionability?
That's why we have courts - they (judge or jury) will decide what is considered unconscionable - based on various laws, including consumer protection laws. Not everything (or really almost nothing) in the law is black and white
True. I just don't see this going anywhere. The state may find a way to shut down his license and he will just open up under a different entity. But for him to pay restitution? No chance, especially when he won his cases in the courts that you speak of. But hey I could be wrong, we shall see I guess.
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| Posted 2/1/17 9:50 AM |
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mrsrainbow
LIF Adult
Member since 1/17 1465 total posts
Name:
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Arie Gal on cbs news - STAR tax rebate
I have never heard of this until now but looking at those docs, the original one sent to the homeowner seems pretty clear. I am sorry people felt taken advantage of but everything seems spelled out that you are knowingly entering into a contract to have someone do the work for you.
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| Posted 2/1/17 10:12 AM |
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