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Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
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Bxgell2
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Beth
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Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
A handful of Ga. school districts agree to offer Bible classes
ATLANTA, Georgia (AP) -- Georgia's public schools walk a delicate line as they decide whether to offer the nation's first state-funded Bible classes -- measuring the difference between preaching and teaching with the likelihood of costly lawsuits looming for those that miss the mark.
The state school board approved curriculum in March for teaching the Bible in Georgia's high schools, but there hasn't been a rush of schools to start up the classes. Only a handful of the state's 180 school districts have agreed to offer the elective classes so far.
"It has been a very thoughtful, healthy process," said Robin Pennock, deputy schools superintendent of Muscogee County, where the school board decided to offer the Old Testament and New Testament classes next fall. "Most people do realize that this is an area that many people can feel very passionate about."
It's difficult to confirm how many school boards have adopted or are considering the classes. However, Muscogee -- which borders Alabama and includes the city of Columbus and the Army's Fort Benning -- is one of the state's largest districts to have done so.
"It's important to understand religion; it's something we've gotten too far away from," said Jan Pease, whose 15-year-old daughter attends Northside High School in Columbus.
The Bible already is incorporated into comparative religion and other public school classes in many states, but those classes are funded by the local districts, not with money from state government.
The Georgia law allowing the state-funded Bible classes won overwhelming approval last year from both Democrat and Republican lawmakers. The classes must be taught "in an objective and nondevotional manner with no attempt made to indoctrinate students."
Lawmakers in Alabama, Missouri, Tennessee and Texas have considered similar plans this year, although none has received final approval. One proposal in Texas would require all high school students to take a Bible class.
Supporters say fully understanding history, literature and political science -- from the writings of Martin Luther King Jr. to the war in Iraq -- requires knowledge of the Bible.
"I don't think you can understand Shakespeare, that you can understand a great deal of literary allusions or that you can understand a great deal of Western civilization without understanding the role of the Bible," said Pennock, a former Western civilization teacher.
The Rev. Charles Hasty, of First Presbyterian Church in Columbus, said he hopes exposure to the Bible's teachings may lead some students to seek out a more spiritual approach in their lives.
"It's going to challenge the faith of some students and it may foster the faith of others," Hasty said.
Critics fear the classes could easily turn into endorsements of Christianity.
"Georgia has set teachers up for failure," said Charles Haynes, of the First Amendment Center, a Washington, D.C.-based civil liberties group. "The chances of it being unconstitutional are pretty big and the pitfalls are huge."
His group supports religious discussions and study of the Bible in public schools, but Haynes says Georgia's law fails to give enough guidance to teachers on the difference between academic study and spiritual teaching.
No additional training for teachers is required, although Barrow and Muscogee counties, which both will offer the classes, plan to give teachers an online course and other special preparation.
Haynes said the lack of direction in state law makes schools vulnerable to lawsuits if students feel religion is being endorsed.
"People are going to sue," he said. "That's why the Legislature should have been more responsible about putting school boards in situations where they might have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, split their communities and end up in a courtroom."
The First Amendment Center and Georgia's branch of the American Civil Liberties Union both say they plan to monitor how the classes are taught.
Concern about violating the separation of church and state is a reason why some of Georgia's largest districts have steered clear of the classes so far.
"We have to be very careful with that," said Joe Buck, chairman of the Savannah-Chatham County Board of Education. His school system has made no move yet to consider the classes.
Pease, a Christian, said she'd support schools teaching comparative religion classes, including those that studied the holy books of other major faiths like Islam's Quran.
"I don't think any particular religion needs to be pushed on anyone," she said. "But I do think it's important to teach about them."
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Posted 5/2/07 9:17 AM  |
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lucyloo
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Re: Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
To me that does seem to be a clear attempt to endorse Christianity. I don't think it's right.
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| Posted 5/2/07 9:23 AM |
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Lisa
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Re: Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
I dont understand why its so bad? It not like its a required course....its an elective class and those students that want to take it, should have the opportunity.
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| Posted 5/2/07 9:26 AM |
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SweetTooth
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Re: Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
I think it depends on how the class is taught. If its taught as somethig like the Bible as Literature, then thats ok. But if its taught with preachiness and religious undertones, then its not ok.
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| Posted 5/2/07 9:29 AM |
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Bxgell2
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Beth
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Re: Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
Posted by Lisa
I dont understand why its so bad? It not like its a required course....its an elective class and those students that want to take it, should have the opportunity.
Because it is a not-so-subtle endorsement of christianity, which is strictly forbidden by our constitution for public educationary institutions. I can see how, even if an elective, this could make students who are not christian, or who do not believe in the bible, uncomfortable and isolated.
I agree that it would be TOTALLY appropriate at the University and College level, but not at a state-funded public school. Bible education should be taught at the home, at church, at temple, etc., NOT in school.
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| Posted 5/2/07 9:29 AM |
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GoldenRod
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Shawn
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Re: Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
I think this is a very dangerous position for the school districts to be in. I don't see any way that it won't offend someone. Even churches that strongly believe in the Bible interpret it differently. Without any formal training for the instructors, it will most likely have that individual's interpretation of the Bible, which will skew the students' understanding of what is in there.
Without getting into a debate about the Bible itself, which I believe should be taught and discussed in church-related activities, so the people can decide which interpretation and teaching they like, I don't see any good that can come out of broaching such a controversial and explosive topic.
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| Posted 5/2/07 9:29 AM |
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KrisT
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Re: Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
Posted by SweetTooth
I think it depends on how the class is taught. If its taught as somethig like the Bible as Literature, then thats ok. But if its taught with preachiness and religious undertones, then its not ok.
I agree. My public high school offered Bible as Literature (which I took) and it was not at all a religous class and it clearly didn't endorse Christianity becaue the teacher was Jewish!
ETA: However, my gut feeling is that this class isn't about literature!
Message edited 5/2/2007 9:34:48 AM.
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| Posted 5/2/07 9:31 AM |
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Woodsy
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Re: Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
Posted by KrisT
Posted by SweetTooth
I think it depends on how the class is taught. If its taught as somethig like the Bible as Literature, then thats ok. But if its taught with preachiness and religious undertones, then its not ok.
I agree. My public high school offered Bible as Literature (which I took) and it was not at all a religous class and it clearly didn't endorse Christianity becaue the teacher was Jewish!
I agree too. The Bible has relevancy aside from Christianity...isn't it the most widely read work of literature in the world? I went to a private, non religious college and we were assigned Bible passages in our humanities course (as well as the Torah, Koran, etc.) for their historical or philosophical relevancy. (I think my prof was atheist.)
Of course, as SweetTooth stated, the main factor here is how it is taught. It can't be like Sunday Bible school...it must be taught from a historical/philosophical or literary perspective.
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| Posted 5/2/07 9:37 AM |
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Woodsy
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Re: Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
Posted by KrisT
ETA: However, my gut feeling is that this class isn't about literature!
this is probably very true, too, though!!
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| Posted 5/2/07 9:38 AM |
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leighla
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Re: Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
To me, if it is elective then there isn't an issue. As long as you aren't forcing a student to go then there is still that separation.
I agree it would be BETTER if it were a "religious studies" class that covered all religions though.
I mean, LOTS of schools still say a morning prayer and our pledge of allegiance says "Under God" at the end.
Separation of church and state has never really been clearly enforced. 
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| Posted 5/2/07 9:40 AM |
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Bxgell2
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Beth
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Re: Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
Posted by KrisT
Posted by SweetTooth
I think it depends on how the class is taught. If its taught as somethig like the Bible as Literature, then thats ok. But if its taught with preachiness and religious undertones, then its not ok.
I agree. My public high school offered Bible as Literature (which I took) and it was not at all a religous class and it clearly didn't endorse Christianity becaue the teacher was Jewish!
ETA: However, my gut feeling is that this class isn't about literature!
I agree, the bible has significance in a literary and historical sense, and that if taught by the right, neutral person, it could be beneficial, but I really think it's so much more appropriate at the college/university level, or taught in the home, or at a religious institution like church or temple. The possibility for a class like this to run askew is just too great, and it smacks of inappropriate to me.
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| Posted 5/2/07 9:41 AM |
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leese
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Re: Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
Posted by KrisT
Posted by SweetTooth
I think it depends on how the class is taught. If its taught as somethig like the Bible as Literature, then thats ok. But if its taught with preachiness and religious undertones, then its not ok.
I agree. My public high school offered Bible as Literature (which I took) and it was not at all a religous class and it clearly didn't endorse Christianity becaue the teacher was Jewish!
ETA: However, my gut feeling is that this class isn't about literature!
I took that class as well as an elective, which was also a "college class" from Nassau (I received credits). The teacher of the class was an adjunct of Nassau and a teacher at my HS.
The class had nothing, whatsoever, to do with religion. It was Bible as Literature and explored the subtle writings and historical context. It was one of the best classes I have ever taken at the HS, BA and Masters level.
Message edited 5/2/2007 9:46:08 AM.
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| Posted 5/2/07 9:45 AM |
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Ophelia
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Re: Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
Posted by Bxgell2
"It's important to understand religion; it's something we've gotten too far away from," said Jan Pease, whose 15-year-old daughter attends Northside High School in Columbus.
Supporters say fully understanding history, literature and political science -- from the writings of Martin Luther King Jr. to the war in Iraq -- requires knowledge of the Bible.
"I don't think you can understand Shakespeare, that you can understand a great deal of literary allusions or that you can understand a great deal of Western civilization without understanding the role of the Bible,".
Pease, a Christian, said she'd support schools teaching comparative religion classes, including those that studied the holy books of other major faiths like Islam's Quran.
"I don't think any particular religion needs to be pushed on anyone," she said. "But I do think it's important to teach about them."
I agree with all of those statements.
I am doubltful though, that this "in an objective and nondevotional manner with no attempt made to indoctrinate students." will be feasible, unless the teachers themselves are instructed fully, and have read the other "forms" of the bible, IE, the Torah, the Quran etc.
for people, especially children to see how they are similar, and how they are different, could be HUGE in helping the next generations come to some sort of calm or peace in the context of religion.
Understanding and knowlege is key...the issue is, who is wielding this knowlege, and how is it spinning on the way to the children's ears.
Message edited 5/2/2007 9:52:54 AM.
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| Posted 5/2/07 9:51 AM |
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Woodsy
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Re: Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
Posted by leighla
Separation of church and state has never really been clearly enforced.
Actually, nothing in the Constitution requires "separation of church and state." A lot of people think that is a Constitutional mandate, when that phrase is not even in the Constitution. It derives from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson.
The First Amendment makes "the free exercise" of religion a Constitutional right on one hand, and prevents the government from passing a law that "establishes" religion. I guess the concern here is that a bible class could seem to be a state endorsement of a particular religion in violation of the establishment clause.
Here, the law says the course has to be thought in an objective manner, such that there is no violation of the establishment clause. Not sure if that is going to be the reality but I guess they should be given the benefit of the doubt....
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| Posted 5/2/07 9:53 AM |
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nrthshgrl
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Re: Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
IMO the only place the Bible has in a public school is in a humanities course along side the Qur'an and sutras - and even that I hesitate to accept at a high school level.
Why should you have a Bible elective course but exclude other religious texts? If you're allowing a credit, you should teach about all religions.
This reminds me of the documentary, Jesus Camp.
Message edited 5/2/2007 9:56:51 AM.
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| Posted 5/2/07 9:56 AM |
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leighla
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Lauren
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Re: Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
Posted by Woodsy
Posted by leighla
Separation of church and state has never really been clearly enforced.
Actually, nothing in the Constitution requires "separation of church and state." A lot of people think that is a Constitutional mandate, when that phrase is not even in the Constitution. It derives from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson.
The First Amendment makes "the free exercise" of religion a Constitutional right on one hand, and prevents the government from passing a law that "establishes" religion. I guess the concern here is that a bible class could seem to be a state endorsement of a particular religion in violation of the establishment clause.
Here, the law says the course has to be thought in an objective manner, such that there is no violation of the establishment clause. Not sure if that is going to be the reality but I guess they should be given the benefit of the doubt....
I agree.
The point of my last statement was to the OP's title of the post: "What happened to separation of chruch and state" It's never been separate in my eyes.
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| Posted 5/2/07 9:59 AM |
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mtnmama
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Message edited 6/9/2009 4:21:35 PM.
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| Posted 5/2/07 10:34 AM |
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GoldenRod
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Shawn
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Re: Um, hello, what happened to separation of church and state???
Posted by cpanyc
It is an elective, I don't see it as forcing or endorsing anythng.
If a parent doesn't want their kid to take the course then they don't have to.
This is where the slippery slope starts getting dangerous: (quoted from the original post)
Lawmakers in Alabama, Missouri, Tennessee and Texas have considered similar plans this year, although none has received final approval. One proposal in Texas would require all high school students to take a Bible class.
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| Posted 5/2/07 11:20 AM |
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