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If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
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wannabemom
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Member since 12/07 7364 total posts
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aka marriedinportjeff
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by lipglossjunky73
Posted by wannabemom
did I call it or what 
Not At all. Why can't people have a debate with great points without people throwing in these damn popcorn icons hoping it drums up drama? I think so far everyone had passionate points but not the drama you were looking for. Sorry, but the only thing you contributed to this argument was this.
yeah, seriously, no need to criticize me for that.... with some hot button passionate things I think it's best to tred lightly... I actually placed mr popcorn here becuase it's such a passionate topic.
I LOVE political debates... and not to toot my horn, but I'm rather knowledgable on many of these topics... but israel/palestine is more about passion and which side a person agrees with rather than than anything else.
and for the record, I DID contribute more than mr. popcorn... but it was an unbiased comment on how I think things will end up.... w/o my opinion on whether it is morally right or not.
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Posted 12/31/08 12:57 PM  |
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Goldi0218
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Member since 12/05 23902 total posts
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Leslie
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
If you ask me, popcorn is just like this thread - it gets stuck in my teeth til it hurts. And trust me... this discussion hurts.
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| Posted 12/31/08 12:58 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
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remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Goldi0218
If you ask me, popcorn is just like this thread - it gets stuck in my teeth til it hurts. And trust me... this discussion hurts.
 I am sorry for that. not my intention, or, if I may speak for anyone else, anyones.
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| Posted 12/31/08 1:00 PM |
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Goldi0218
My miracles!
Member since 12/05 23902 total posts
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Leslie
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by Goldi0218
If you ask me, popcorn is just like this thread - it gets stuck in my teeth til it hurts. And trust me... this discussion hurts.
I am sorry for that. not my intention, or, if I may speak for anyone else, anyones.
Fault is not to be attributed to anyone here. Its just that when something so dear to you is challenged, it is very hard to understand WHY it is challenged. But that is life. We live and learn.
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| Posted 12/31/08 1:02 PM |
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seaside
LIF Adult
Member since 6/08 3101 total posts
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
The popcorn contributed nothing--it never does. This may be a bias of mine, but that icon bugs me because it (the icon--not the user of the icon) seems to express glee at the prospect that people may hurt or become hurt by one another (and that's useless).
The ladies who explained the nuances of the situation and why it's inappropriate to distribute blame and anger equally (with ample evidence to back themselves up), IMO, really clarified things in a useful and (IMO) unbiased way.
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| Posted 12/31/08 1:23 PM |
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MrsR
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Member since 5/05 6247 total posts
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Jennifer
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Bxgell2
I cannot speak for anyone else but myself, but my views do not come in any way, shape or form because I have an automatic bias for Israel. My views are a result of looking at the situation for what it is, looking at the facts, and deciding where I stand.
And I think you are wrong - there is something to be said for taking the middle line and looking at both sides, in many situations, especially political ones. But, the truth is, there are many situations in which it is fair to judge, and fair to blame one side more than another. To always follow the middle line, as a political ideology, and ensure that each side shares blame, will all too often glib over the very real facts. Not everything in life is fair, and not every situation requires that each side share in equal blame.
I am not saying that Israel has acted with innocence and purity of heart in each and every circumstance. But, given the history, and the sentiment directed at the country and the people, based SOLELY on religious and cultural ideologies, and the many, repeated efforts Israel has made to do whatever it can to appease Hamas and the Palenstinians, I simply cannot conclude that in this case, each side shares equally in the blame. I simply do not think that is a possible conclusion when you are comparing a democratic government whose actions are defensive to protect its citizens with a terrorist organization whose mission is discriminatory.
And that is not a bias for ANY country - that stems from my political view that political events involving terrorist organizations rarely involve equal blame.
I don't see it as a bias towards Israel - I see it as a bias against anti-semitism, racism, and terrorism.
I don't really think that people in the US really understand how closely we are tied to what happens in Israel...the terrorist organizations that want to see Israel annihiliated also want to see the US annihilated. The actions and consequences that occur there are really not as far away from home as you think they are.
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| Posted 12/31/08 1:35 PM |
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Rlivings
LIF Infant
Member since 4/08 79 total posts
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
"The Palestinians had a very better existense under Israeli occupation- electricity, clean water etc. that they did not have when they were living under Jordanian/Egyptian occupation.
Also, Israel never wanted control of these areas- she had to take control to secure her own existense against the crazy terrorism. In 1948 the UN partioned palestiine and Israel agreed to her small piece. However, the Arabs wouldn't agree and attacked her, again and again over the years. So, she has occupied these territories for safety.
Any deperation that these "martyrs" have is of their own doing, NOT ISRAELS. Quite frankly, blowing yourself up in restaurants is NEVER justified- EVER."
I think this thread is dead but whoever wrote this had it dead on!!! The palestinians would probably starve to dead if it weren't for co-existence with Israel. Most Israelis and Israeli leaders are willing to give up THEIR LAND (let their be no mistake about that) FOR PEACE but that's not good enough for Hamas!!!!
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| Posted 12/31/08 1:40 PM |
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BunnyWife
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Member since 5/07 8274 total posts
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BunnyWife
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by Bxgell2
I cannot speak for anyone else but myself, but my views do not come in any way, shape or form because I have an automatic bias for Israel. My views are a result of looking at the situation for what it is, looking at the facts, and deciding where I stand.
And I think you are wrong - there is something to be said for taking the middle line and looking at both sides, in many situations, especially political ones. But, the truth is, there are many situations in which it is fair to judge, and fair to blame one side more than another. To always follow the middle line, as a political ideology, and ensure that each side shares blame, will all too often glib over the very real facts. Not everything in life is fair, and not every situation requires that each side share in equal blame.
I am not saying that Israel has acted with innocence and purity of heart in each and every circumstance. But, given the history, and the sentiment directed at the country and the people, based SOLELY on religious and cultural ideologies, and the many, repeated efforts Israel has made to do whatever it can to appease Hamas and the Palenstinians, I simply cannot conclude that in this case, each side shares equally in the blame. I simply do not think that is a possible conclusion when you are comparing a democratic government whose actions are defensive to protect its citizens with a terrorist organization whose mission is discriminatory.
And that is not a bias for ANY country - that stems from my political view that political events involving terrorist organizations rarely involve equal blame.
perhaps I misspoke...what I meant was, that the thread is decidedly more pro Israel, justfied or not...it's an observation that cannot be denied.
and you are speaking in generalities in terms of a middle line...I am not. I did not say that one should "always" do anything as a political ideaology.
what I am saying is, right or wrong, I can SEE how a group like Hamas became strong...I can SEE where BOTH govts have failed it's people.
I have said time and again that I DO NOT agree with terrorism in ANY of it's forms...but I can see how a situation could deteriorate to a place where it seemed like a feasible response. I DO NOT AGREE with it, but I can SEE how it occurred. it's pure psychology.
I am sorry that Israel has so much hate pointed towards it. It makes no sense to me and I do not understand it.
Leslie, I too would love to go to the Holy Land. My savior himself was a Jew. I would LOVE to spend Christmas in Bethelem.
the land truly belongs to ALL of us.
something has to be done to save us from ourselves.
What Ophelia said. This all stems from people feel that they have a RIGHT to a certain place. If we could share this land that the worlds three major religions call home then maybe, just maybe, there could be peace.......But I won't hold my breath.
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| Posted 12/31/08 1:41 PM |
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wannabemom
look who's freshly baked!
Member since 12/07 7364 total posts
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aka marriedinportjeff
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
seriously, this thread must end... it likely is stirring up a lot of sad emotions in many people who are reading and not posting....
this conflict is a bundle of both what is best and worst in human nature....
the best: charity, solidarity, speaking up for what is morally right, defending your brother/sister
the worst: intense hatred, lack of compromise, stubborness, violence, and blinding anger w/o caring what consequences your actions have
I honestly believe human nature really prevents a solution to this horrible conflict... it's not impossible (ex. egypt), but it's almost unattainable
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| Posted 12/31/08 1:47 PM |
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Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)
Member since 5/06 23378 total posts
Name:
remember, when Gulliver traveled....
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by MrsR
I don't see it as a bias towards Israel - I see it as a bias against anti-semitism, racism, and terrorism.
I don't really think that people in the US really understand how closely we are tied to what happens in Israel...the terrorist organizations that want to see Israel annihiliated also want to see the US annihilated. The actions and consequences that occur there are really not as far away from home as you think they are.
actually, that is my basic point. WE in this country have been attacked, and I daresay we are in for more in the future. so have many western countries.
however, I do not believe that our justice system would alllow us to place an entire group of people in the position where they had no means to EARN money. where they could not go freely about, another round of segregation here.
I think it puts us in a precarious position, b/c the very freedoms we enjoy potentially leave us open to danger. but our country is build upon these freedoms...we have fought each other to extend these freedoms to ALL who come here.
I don't envy Israels position in the world. I really don't. nor do I know the best way to solve this problem, and I don't pretend I do. I only pray that our Gods find some way to illuminate us all before it's too late.
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| Posted 12/31/08 1:53 PM |
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Bxgell2
Perfection
Member since 5/05 16438 total posts
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Beth
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Ophelia
Posted by MrsR
I don't see it as a bias towards Israel - I see it as a bias against anti-semitism, racism, and terrorism.
I don't really think that people in the US really understand how closely we are tied to what happens in Israel...the terrorist organizations that want to see Israel annihiliated also want to see the US annihilated. The actions and consequences that occur there are really not as far away from home as you think they are.
actually, that is my basic point. WE in this country have been attacked, and I daresay we are in for more in the future. so have many western countries.
however, I do not believe that our justice system would alllow us to place an entire group of people in the position where they had no means to EARN money. where they could not go freely about, another round of segregation here.
Again, it's not that simple. The refugee camps are a far cry from segregation that this country has experienced in the past. The palestinian refugees are not being forced to live in the camps. The restriction instead is against entering Israel to work, for good reason. These are exactly the kind of restrictions that the U.S. employs as well - we don't segregate populations, but we DO have restrictions on the people who are allowed to enter into this country to work and live, and you better damn well believe that if someone has ties to a terrorist organization, there would be severe restrictions placed on them, for security reasons.
The same applies in Israel - the only reason why it may appear to be segregation is because, while the palestinians in the refugee camps may work or live anywhere else, but Israel, because of the simple geography of the region, it just isn't all that feasible. If you take a look, the countries bordering Israel are very close together. They could very well travel to Egypt, Syria or Lebanon to work, but the economies in those countries cannot sustain it. Israel, on the other hand, has a thriving economy, so that is why they would prefer to work there. But, the state of the economy in other countries, and geographical location is NOT Israel's fault.
Israel is not segregating anyone. It merely has restrictions in place so that people cannot travel easily into Israel to work. The reason being is that Israel is ALREADY flooded with daily terroristic attacks at cafe's, parks, buses, schools, you name it. If they opened their borders to a group of people who CHOSE a terrorist organization that proposes the annihilation of Israel and the jews, the assaults would be endless, and the lives of too many would be risked, INCLUDING arabs and palestinians!
Message edited 12/31/2008 2:33:19 PM.
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| Posted 12/31/08 2:32 PM |
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seaside
LIF Adult
Member since 6/08 3101 total posts
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Thank you!
"The palestinian refugees are not being forced to live in the camps."
THIS is why I take issue with any statement about Israel, irony, and "CAMPS". The fact that people choose to live in a place termed by some a certain kind of camp has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that Jewish people were interred in death and torture camps in Europe.
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| Posted 12/31/08 3:15 PM |
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casey31
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Member since 5/05 2967 total posts
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Some history:
Palestinians lived in what was British controlled Palestine.
Jews were murdered in the Holocaust in Europe- some escaped to Palestine (including my grandparents). They lived in peace with the Palestinians developing the land.
Some Arab neighbors felt threatened by the Jews.
The UN partitioned Palestine- giving half to the Jews and half to the Palestinians. Jew said okay. Arab neighbors attacked them. Many Palestinians fled during the war to the "territories"- the became the West Bank and Gaza- controlled by Jordan and Egypt.
Israel grew into a thriving democracy. She was attacked in 1956 and then in 1967. In 1967 she took control of the territories as a buffer for her security.
She has improved the living situation for the Palestinians but they are still the "bastards" of the Middle East- the have been used by Jordan, Egypt as an excuse to make the Arab world hate Israel. She has tried to give land back for peace but that hasn't worked. What is she to do? Hamas and most of the Arab world hates her, wants her destroyed. She is in a no-win situation.
The Palestinians are in a terrible situation but I truly believe that it is NOT Israel's fault at all. The only way this will end well is for the Palestinian people to renounce Hezbollah and Hamas and agree that Israel has a right to exist. Then Israel can share her wealth and economy with them and they can all thrive in their separate states.
Message edited 12/31/2008 3:46:40 PM.
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| Posted 12/31/08 3:44 PM |
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SweetestOfPeas
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by Bxgell2
Usually I am a middle of the line kind of person and can see issues from both sides, respectfully. And, even here, yes I can see that the hostiity and aggression on both sides is serving no real purpose.
However, my sympathy for the other side in this case doesn't extend all that far because their intent and mission is entirely different than that of Israel. Israel rarely attacks for no reason, and when it does attack, targets terrorist cells and organizations.
Hamas, on the other hand, calls for the complete annihilation of the State of Israel and the jewish people. Isreal does NOT take that perspective when it comes to Palestine, and in fact, has made several attempts to encourage the peaceful cohabitation of Israelis with Palestinians by giving back large chunks of land.
And while Israel does usually does not act aggresively, but instead retaliatory, and directs its attacks as best it can against the terrorist cells themselves, Hamas literally terrorizes the Israeli people with direct, and intentional attacks against civilians.
And the truth is the UN did not "steal" land from the Palenstinians when it created the Israeli state. Plenty of jews/israels already lived on the land.
AGREED!
the Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel. how do you even attempt to make peace with someone who had this ideology?
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| Posted 12/31/08 3:48 PM |
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Kidsaplenty
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Re: If someone can explain the Israel/Hammas thing
Posted by SweetestOfPeas
the Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel. how do you even attempt to make peace with someone who had this ideology?
You can't. When a group of people feel their land has been stolen, and are willing to fight to the death for it, there is no winning, on either side.
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| Posted 12/31/08 8:02 PM |
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