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Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
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Hofstra26
Love to Bake!
Member since 7/06 27915 total posts
Name:
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Regarding a job and your freedoms.
You are NOT constitutionally promised a job. Your freedoms do NOT include that your employment is a guarantee. Why some have this idea in their head is beyond my understanding.
Being married to someone on the executive side of the argument where he's responsible for setting company policy, hiring and firing I've been able to have a deeper insight into how companies work.
Whether you agree with company policy or not, every business has the right to set conditions for employment so long as they fall within a legal boundary. Using my DH as an example, often times when a new policy is being considered (depending on what it is) his company will confer with legal counsel to make sure they are not violating any laws, ethics or rights.
Using the vaccine as an example, his company did consider mandating it and it would've been within their legal right to do so as a condition of continued employment. Ultimately they decided not to mandate, but they LEGALLY could have.
Point is, carrying on about how people's rights and freedoms are being taken away with regards to a job shows a lack of understanding as to how business and the law works. Companies/employers are within their rights to set conditions for employment and as an employee you are guaranteed nothing where your job is concerned. You can be "let go" for a myriad of reasons and that isn't taking away your rights, that's just how the the world works. How business works. As an employee you have the CHOICE to accept the conditions of your employment or find another job. Either way, it's a choice. Period. Whether you like the choice or think it's fair is a different discussion.
Understanding that corporate decisions are not personal and are set with the best interests of the company as a whole in mind is critical to understanding any and every mandate argument where employment is concerned. As long as laws aren't being violated, there is no threat to your rights.
Message edited 2/11/2022 10:57:00 AM.
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Posted 2/11/22 10:53 AM  |
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
If you are a doctor or a nurse or some other profession that the ENTIRE profession is required is NOT the same as an everyday job that you can find another one, that you do the exact same thing and have the exact type of position someplace else.
If you, as a former teacher decided you didn't want to be vaccinated and ALL teacher jobs required to be vaccinated, what would you do? Go back to retail and make little to no money when you are used to that lifestyle and being able to support your family?
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| Posted 2/11/22 11:11 AM |
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CookiePuss
Cake from Outer Space!
Member since 5/05 14007 total posts
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Posted by windyweather21
If you are a doctor or a nurse or some other profession that the ENTIRE profession is required is NOT the same as an everyday job that you can find another one, that you do the exact same thing and have the exact type of position someplace else.
If you, as a former teacher decided you didn't want to be vaccinated and ALL teacher jobs required to be vaccinated, what would you do? Go back to retail and make little to no money when you are used to that lifestyle and being able to support your family?
There are plenty of industries that limit an employees free will. There are plenty of entire professions that have universal requirements that must be met for employment. A vaccine mandate falls in to that. You don’t want to vaccinate- find a new job/profession. I knew a couple in healthcare that didn’t wish to vaccinate that left their job and moved to another nursing job that didn’t require it . Having to meet eligibility requirements for continued employment is not a new idea
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| Posted 2/11/22 11:25 AM |
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Hofstra26
Love to Bake!
Member since 7/06 27915 total posts
Name:
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
For those in the back.............
Employment, no matter the profession or job, is not a constitutional guarantee.
As long as company policy falls within the letter of the law then individual rights and freedoms have NOT been violated.
When you accept a job, you also accept the conditions of said employment. If you CHOOSE to not abide by those conditions than the employer can CHOOSE to let you go.
It's really a very simple concept.
Message edited 2/11/2022 11:27:55 AM.
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| Posted 2/11/22 11:27 AM |
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KarenK122
The Journey is the Destination
Member since 5/05 4430 total posts
Name:
Karen
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Posted by Hofstra26
Regarding a job and your freedoms.
You are NOT constitutionally promised a job. Your freedoms do NOT include that your employment is a guarantee. Why some have this idea in their head is beyond my understanding.
Being married to someone on the executive side of the argument where he's responsible for setting company policy, hiring and firing I've been able to have a deeper insight into how companies work.
Whether you agree with company policy or not, every business has the right to set conditions for employment so long as they fall within a legal boundary. Using my DH as an example, often times when a new policy is being considered (depending on what it is) his company will confer with legal counsel to make sure they are not violating any laws, ethics or rights.
Using the vaccine as an example, his company did consider mandating it and it would've been within their legal right to do so as a condition of continued employment. Ultimately they decided not to mandate, but they LEGALLY could have.
Point is, carrying on about how people's rights and freedoms are being taken away with regards to a job shows a lack of understanding as to how business and the law works. Companies/employers are within their rights to set conditions for employment and as an employee you are guaranteed nothing where your job is concerned. You can be "let go" for a myriad of reasons and that isn't taking away your rights, that's just how the the world works. How business works. As an employee you have the CHOICE to accept the conditions of your employment or find another job. Either way, it's a choice. Period. Whether you like the choice or think it's fair is a different discussion.
Understanding that corporate decisions are not personal and are set with the best interests of the company as a whole in mind is critical to understanding any and every mandate argument where employment is concerned. As long as laws aren't being violated, there is no threat to your rights.
A business does not have the right to mandate that any particular shot or vaccine be taken as part of their employee contract unless it is a federal or local law. There is no law for the Covid vaccine. By the government making businesses adhere to this mandate, not law, they were taking away employment from those who chose not to follow a mandate. What you are saying is the a company can do whatever they choose, which is not lawful. What's next, sorry you can't work here because you are autistic, you have diabetes, you have a mental disorder, you are the wrong color or are a homosexual? There are laws that need to be followed and the whole point of probably this whole mask vs. no mask and vaccine vs. no vaccine is that nothing was law. It was all executive orders and mandates.
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| Posted 2/11/22 11:29 AM |
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Hofstra26
Love to Bake!
Member since 7/06 27915 total posts
Name:
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Posted by KarenK122
Posted by Hofstra26
Regarding a job and your freedoms.
You are NOT constitutionally promised a job. Your freedoms do NOT include that your employment is a guarantee. Why some have this idea in their head is beyond my understanding.
Being married to someone on the executive side of the argument where he's responsible for setting company policy, hiring and firing I've been able to have a deeper insight into how companies work.
Whether you agree with company policy or not, every business has the right to set conditions for employment so long as they fall within a legal boundary. Using my DH as an example, often times when a new policy is being considered (depending on what it is) his company will confer with legal counsel to make sure they are not violating any laws, ethics or rights.
Using the vaccine as an example, his company did consider mandating it and it would've been within their legal right to do so as a condition of continued employment. Ultimately they decided not to mandate, but they LEGALLY could have.
Point is, carrying on about how people's rights and freedoms are being taken away with regards to a job shows a lack of understanding as to how business and the law works. Companies/employers are within their rights to set conditions for employment and as an employee you are guaranteed nothing where your job is concerned. You can be "let go" for a myriad of reasons and that isn't taking away your rights, that's just how the the world works. How business works. As an employee you have the CHOICE to accept the conditions of your employment or find another job. Either way, it's a choice. Period. Whether you like the choice or think it's fair is a different discussion.
Understanding that corporate decisions are not personal and are set with the best interests of the company as a whole in mind is critical to understanding any and every mandate argument where employment is concerned. As long as laws aren't being violated, there is no threat to your rights.
A business does not have the right to mandate that any particular shot or vaccine be taken as part of their employee contract unless it is a federal or local law. There is no law for the Covid vaccine. By the government making businesses adhere to this mandate, not law, they were taking away employment from those who chose not to follow a mandate. What you are saying is the a company can do whatever they choose, which is not lawful. What's next, sorry you can't work here because you are autistic, you have diabetes, you have a mental disorder, you are the wrong color or are a homosexual? There are laws that need to be followed and the whole point of probably this whole mask vs. no mask and vaccine vs. no vaccine is that nothing was law. It was all executive orders and mandates.
Yea, go back and reread.
What I actually said was that so long as company policy, vaccine or otherwise, falls within a legal construct then no rights or personal freedoms have been violated.
As for vaccines, mandated vaccinations for school, employment, etc is nothing new. But I'm done arguing over vaccines, it's a waste of time on here.
Point was, as an employee you accept the conditions set forth for employment and if you choose to not abide then they can choose to cut you loose. Nobody is guaranteed employment.
ETA - What you used as an example are forms of discrimination and as such, is illegal. It's not really relevant to the discussion or my point. A company wouldn't set a policy that you have to be white and heterosexual to work there as that would be illegal and a violation of rights and freedoms.
Message edited 2/11/2022 11:41:00 AM.
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| Posted 2/11/22 11:38 AM |
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CookiePuss
Cake from Outer Space!
Member since 5/05 14007 total posts
Name:
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Posted by KarenK122
Posted by Hofstra26
Regarding a job and your freedoms.
You are NOT constitutionally promised a job. Your freedoms do NOT include that your employment is a guarantee. Why some have this idea in their head is beyond my understanding.
Being married to someone on the executive side of the argument where he's responsible for setting company policy, hiring and firing I've been able to have a deeper insight into how companies work.
Whether you agree with company policy or not, every business has the right to set conditions for employment so long as they fall within a legal boundary. Using my DH as an example, often times when a new policy is being considered (depending on what it is) his company will confer with legal counsel to make sure they are not violating any laws, ethics or rights.
Using the vaccine as an example, his company did consider mandating it and it would've been within their legal right to do so as a condition of continued employment. Ultimately they decided not to mandate, but they LEGALLY could have.
Point is, carrying on about how people's rights and freedoms are being taken away with regards to a job shows a lack of understanding as to how business and the law works. Companies/employers are within their rights to set conditions for employment and as an employee you are guaranteed nothing where your job is concerned. You can be "let go" for a myriad of reasons and that isn't taking away your rights, that's just how the the world works. How business works. As an employee you have the CHOICE to accept the conditions of your employment or find another job. Either way, it's a choice. Period. Whether you like the choice or think it's fair is a different discussion.
Understanding that corporate decisions are not personal and are set with the best interests of the company as a whole in mind is critical to understanding any and every mandate argument where employment is concerned. As long as laws aren't being violated, there is no threat to your rights.
A business does not have the right to mandate that any particular shot or vaccine be taken as part of their employee contract unless it is a federal or local law. There is no law for the Covid vaccine. By the government making businesses adhere to this mandate, not law, they were taking away employment from those who chose not to follow a mandate. What you are saying is the a company can do whatever they choose, which is not lawful. What's next, sorry you can't work here because you are autistic, you have diabetes, you have a mental disorder, you are the wrong color or are a homosexual? There are laws that need to be followed and the whole point of probably this whole mask vs. no mask and vaccine vs. no vaccine is that nothing was law. It was all executive orders and mandates.
As of now, private companies can make it a requirement of employment. The SCOTUS struck down the Federal gov't mandate of such on private companies.
Your other comparisons such as gender, race, sexual orientation are protected classes so you can't really compare the two,
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| Posted 2/11/22 11:38 AM |
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KarenK122
The Journey is the Destination
Member since 5/05 4430 total posts
Name:
Karen
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by KarenK122
Posted by Hofstra26
Regarding a job and your freedoms.
You are NOT constitutionally promised a job. Your freedoms do NOT include that your employment is a guarantee. Why some have this idea in their head is beyond my understanding.
Being married to someone on the executive side of the argument where he's responsible for setting company policy, hiring and firing I've been able to have a deeper insight into how companies work.
Whether you agree with company policy or not, every business has the right to set conditions for employment so long as they fall within a legal boundary. Using my DH as an example, often times when a new policy is being considered (depending on what it is) his company will confer with legal counsel to make sure they are not violating any laws, ethics or rights.
Using the vaccine as an example, his company did consider mandating it and it would've been within their legal right to do so as a condition of continued employment. Ultimately they decided not to mandate, but they LEGALLY could have.
Point is, carrying on about how people's rights and freedoms are being taken away with regards to a job shows a lack of understanding as to how business and the law works. Companies/employers are within their rights to set conditions for employment and as an employee you are guaranteed nothing where your job is concerned. You can be "let go" for a myriad of reasons and that isn't taking away your rights, that's just how the the world works. How business works. As an employee you have the CHOICE to accept the conditions of your employment or find another job. Either way, it's a choice. Period. Whether you like the choice or think it's fair is a different discussion.
Understanding that corporate decisions are not personal and are set with the best interests of the company as a whole in mind is critical to understanding any and every mandate argument where employment is concerned. As long as laws aren't being violated, there is no threat to your rights.
A business does not have the right to mandate that any particular shot or vaccine be taken as part of their employee contract unless it is a federal or local law. There is no law for the Covid vaccine. By the government making businesses adhere to this mandate, not law, they were taking away employment from those who chose not to follow a mandate. What you are saying is the a company can do whatever they choose, which is not lawful. What's next, sorry you can't work here because you are autistic, you have diabetes, you have a mental disorder, you are the wrong color or are a homosexual? There are laws that need to be followed and the whole point of probably this whole mask vs. no mask and vaccine vs. no vaccine is that nothing was law. It was all executive orders and mandates.
Yea, go back and reread.
What I actually said was that so long as company policy, vaccine or otherwise, falls within a legal construct then no rights or personal freedoms have been violated.
As for vaccines, mandated vaccinations for school, employment, etc is nothing new. But I'm done arguing over vaccines, it's a waste of time on here.
Point was, as an employee you accept the conditions set forth for employment and if you choose to not abide then they can choose to cut you loose. Nobody is guaranteed employment.
I did read just fine. The Covid vaccine does not fall into anything you are describing so employees not being able to work because of these MANDATES not laws that were put in place is violating their rights. By no means am I blaming the businesses as they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The full blame is on the government or dictatorship which is now NY.
Conditions of employment have to do with you representing the company or fulfilling your job duties, not taking a shot that had nothing to do with your employment.
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| Posted 2/11/22 11:44 AM |
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Hofstra26
Love to Bake!
Member since 7/06 27915 total posts
Name:
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Posted by KarenK122
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by KarenK122
Posted by Hofstra26
Regarding a job and your freedoms.
You are NOT constitutionally promised a job. Your freedoms do NOT include that your employment is a guarantee. Why some have this idea in their head is beyond my understanding.
Being married to someone on the executive side of the argument where he's responsible for setting company policy, hiring and firing I've been able to have a deeper insight into how companies work.
Whether you agree with company policy or not, every business has the right to set conditions for employment so long as they fall within a legal boundary. Using my DH as an example, often times when a new policy is being considered (depending on what it is) his company will confer with legal counsel to make sure they are not violating any laws, ethics or rights.
Using the vaccine as an example, his company did consider mandating it and it would've been within their legal right to do so as a condition of continued employment. Ultimately they decided not to mandate, but they LEGALLY could have.
Point is, carrying on about how people's rights and freedoms are being taken away with regards to a job shows a lack of understanding as to how business and the law works. Companies/employers are within their rights to set conditions for employment and as an employee you are guaranteed nothing where your job is concerned. You can be "let go" for a myriad of reasons and that isn't taking away your rights, that's just how the the world works. How business works. As an employee you have the CHOICE to accept the conditions of your employment or find another job. Either way, it's a choice. Period. Whether you like the choice or think it's fair is a different discussion.
Understanding that corporate decisions are not personal and are set with the best interests of the company as a whole in mind is critical to understanding any and every mandate argument where employment is concerned. As long as laws aren't being violated, there is no threat to your rights.
A business does not have the right to mandate that any particular shot or vaccine be taken as part of their employee contract unless it is a federal or local law. There is no law for the Covid vaccine. By the government making businesses adhere to this mandate, not law, they were taking away employment from those who chose not to follow a mandate. What you are saying is the a company can do whatever they choose, which is not lawful. What's next, sorry you can't work here because you are autistic, you have diabetes, you have a mental disorder, you are the wrong color or are a homosexual? There are laws that need to be followed and the whole point of probably this whole mask vs. no mask and vaccine vs. no vaccine is that nothing was law. It was all executive orders and mandates.
Yea, go back and reread.
What I actually said was that so long as company policy, vaccine or otherwise, falls within a legal construct then no rights or personal freedoms have been violated.
As for vaccines, mandated vaccinations for school, employment, etc is nothing new. But I'm done arguing over vaccines, it's a waste of time on here.
Point was, as an employee you accept the conditions set forth for employment and if you choose to not abide then they can choose to cut you loose. Nobody is guaranteed employment.
I did read just fine. The Covid vaccine does not fall into anything you are describing so employees not being able to work because of these MANDATES not laws that were put in place is violating their rights. By no means am I blaming the businesses as they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The full blame is on the government or dictatorship which is now NY.
Conditions of employment have to do with you representing the company or fulfilling your job duties, not taking a shot that had nothing to do with your employment.
I will not continue to argue as I've made my point.
Again, I have had direct insight into the legalities and policies regarding all of this as my DH has had to weigh in on and implement new company policy throughout COVID. He, along with other VP's, have had to to consult with the corporate parent company and legal counsel so I'm going to go ahead and trust that firsthand knowledge of what's right and legal over the opions and frustrations of those on this forum.
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| Posted 2/11/22 11:49 AM |
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LuckyStar
LIF Adult
Member since 7/14 7272 total posts
Name:
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Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
I am vaccinated. It’s a condition of my employment (healthcare). Being fully vaccinated has always been a condition of my employment and I am well aware that I will cease to be employed if I refuse a vaccine.
I support the vaccine. I support the scientists who all but abandoned their families to develop it. Who did NOT get rich, regardless of what laypeople think. The data, both published and unpublished, of which I am qualified to review and interpret, does show efficacy in preventing hospitalization and death. As with any vaccine, it’s efficacy will waver depending on how a virus mutates and there is no way to be 100% clear as to the variables that come into play during mutation. So for me, healthcare or not, I’d choose to get vaccinated. I also 100% support the vaccine mandate for healthcare workers. Why? Because we took our jobs agreeing to be “fully vaccinated.” The majority of healthcare workers will have some rudimentary understanding of basic science (I would hope) and would be able to grasp the concept that viruses don’t care about a vaccine schedule and the definition of “fully vaccinated” is fluid.
But for private industry, in non public facing roles, which have never had a vaccine requirement I think that’s some gray area. If someone was hired into their job with no medical requirements to meet, it’s a hard sell to do it now.
Us vaccine supporters need to stop shoving the vaccine down peoples throats. We need to listen and understand where they are coming from. If people can’t see why others may be hesitant, they’re blind. I disagree with much of how the vaccine has been marketed and I can see why someone would refuse it. Not being able to understand this doesn’t mean you know more about the science, it means you lack the emotional intelligence to understand someone else’s perspective.
For anyone on either side of the coin, I suggest taking a look at ZZDogMD and Doctor Mike. They’re “medical influencers,” which, yes, I know sounds absurd but I actually think bringing accurate, non preachy information to the general public is brilliant.
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| Posted 2/11/22 11:51 AM |
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Hofstra26
Love to Bake!
Member since 7/06 27915 total posts
Name:
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
^^^^^^^To the aover comment from Lucky. (too long to quote)
ETA - I completely get the hesitation with the vaccine, it's why I haven't vaccinated my own children although I got vaccinated myself. I also have friends who are both vaxxed and unvaxxed and I respect their choice either way........and still hang out with them regardless of vaccine status. 
To add to your point, those that are unvaccinated also need to stop the rhetoric that the vaccine doesn't work. You might not want it for yoursellf, which is fine, but insisting it does "nothing" also shows a lack of understanding.
Ultimately, everyone needs to make their own best decisions. What others do isn't my concern, my only care is what's best for myself, my DH, and my kids. 
Message edited 2/11/2022 12:03:28 PM.
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| Posted 2/11/22 11:58 AM |
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soontobemommyof2
My boys...my everything <3
Member since 4/15 3635 total posts
Name:
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Posted by blu6385
Posted by lululu
Posted by blu6385
What I am saying is people should be against alll vaccine mandates not just this one if you are against the covid one.
I get why some vaccines are mandated but I also see why they should not be mandated. I don’t pick and chose when i think something is not right because it’s fits or doesn’t fit my personal agenda.
If you think that the Covid Vaccine is similar to the other vaccines that are mandated, you have been living under a rock. This is a new, unproven, and mostly ineffective vaccine as far as preventing and spreading Covid. I am sure that if the efficacy was what they actually told us before they rolled it out people would be less hesitant to take it. Not to mention it is relatively new technology that has not been tested for long term effects and it was rushed to market. Clearly you must understand the difference.
Again where did I say I think they are the same. All I am saying is we should not be OK with some vaccines being mandated and then other vaccines not being mandated. I am on the side of no vaccine should be mandated!
(ETA: while I don’t think any vaccine should be mandated i should say I have not complained about them being mandated and I don’t really care that they are because honestly I won’t do anything about it. Which is why I don’t complain about them because I have no right to complain about them being mandated when I won’t do anything about it)
And I know I am not the only one who thinks this because all the parents who choose not to vaccine their children don’t want to see any vaccine mandated.
my Point is I didn’t hear many people complaining about the mandated vaccines needed to go to school being against peoples rights except for parents who are against all vaccines for their kids.
Now they want to make the Covid one mandated and all of a sudden people who never cared before are saying it’s going against peoples rights. where is the logic in that??!!
If everyone’s answer is because it’s so new it can’t be mandated fine and that’s the answer but no where am I saying that I’m comparing the covid vaccine against other vaccines.
Again What I am comparing is the fact that other vaccines are mandated for school and people are not complaining that those mandates our against our rights but if they mandate the covid vaccine all of a sudden it’s against our rights.
I know what u’re trying to say and I understand it. I’m one of those parents that think vaccines (covid or any other one) should not be mandated. Why? Because vaccines come with risks for adverse effects, all of them. Therefore they should not be mandated, nothing that comes with risk should be, especially if there’s no one to sue if my kid is a victim of vaccine injury. Not to mention of the tight relationship of big pharma and the government. So why would I trust the same pharmaceutical companies that make these other vaccines, with the new vaccine for covid? They are the same pharma companies with the exception of moderna (although I’m sure now that they’ve had a taste for vaccine profit, they’ll be very interested in making more). Having said this, the adverse effects (short and long term) for the covid vaccine seem to be higher than with other vaccines, reason why it’s not surprising so many people (mainstream people) are having a problem with it. But what we all need to understand (people that don’t believe in vaccines -the way they’re now- and mainstream people) is that this is way bigger than the covid vaccine alone. The entitlement of the government to impose this vaccine didn’t start just now. They’ve been planning this path for a long time, small changes and adjustments at a time and we’re going to the exact direction where they want us to go. The number of vaccines that have been created (and counting), taking away personal choice by mandating them in schools/in certain jobs, granting liability free to these companies, and now with this pandemic, it has given them the perfect opportunity to implement even more rules, giving them even more control over people. Until we all can understand that this has been, is, and will continue affecting ALL of us, the government won’t stop and will continue growing in power and control.
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| Posted 2/11/22 11:59 AM |
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KarenK122
The Journey is the Destination
Member since 5/05 4430 total posts
Name:
Karen
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by KarenK122
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by KarenK122
Posted by Hofstra26
Regarding a job and your freedoms.
You are NOT constitutionally promised a job. Your freedoms do NOT include that your employment is a guarantee. Why some have this idea in their head is beyond my understanding.
Being married to someone on the executive side of the argument where he's responsible for setting company policy, hiring and firing I've been able to have a deeper insight into how companies work.
Whether you agree with company policy or not, every business has the right to set conditions for employment so long as they fall within a legal boundary. Using my DH as an example, often times when a new policy is being considered (depending on what it is) his company will confer with legal counsel to make sure they are not violating any laws, ethics or rights.
Using the vaccine as an example, his company did consider mandating it and it would've been within their legal right to do so as a condition of continued employment. Ultimately they decided not to mandate, but they LEGALLY could have.
Point is, carrying on about how people's rights and freedoms are being taken away with regards to a job shows a lack of understanding as to how business and the law works. Companies/employers are within their rights to set conditions for employment and as an employee you are guaranteed nothing where your job is concerned. You can be "let go" for a myriad of reasons and that isn't taking away your rights, that's just how the the world works. How business works. As an employee you have the CHOICE to accept the conditions of your employment or find another job. Either way, it's a choice. Period. Whether you like the choice or think it's fair is a different discussion.
Understanding that corporate decisions are not personal and are set with the best interests of the company as a whole in mind is critical to understanding any and every mandate argument where employment is concerned. As long as laws aren't being violated, there is no threat to your rights.
A business does not have the right to mandate that any particular shot or vaccine be taken as part of their employee contract unless it is a federal or local law. There is no law for the Covid vaccine. By the government making businesses adhere to this mandate, not law, they were taking away employment from those who chose not to follow a mandate. What you are saying is the a company can do whatever they choose, which is not lawful. What's next, sorry you can't work here because you are autistic, you have diabetes, you have a mental disorder, you are the wrong color or are a homosexual? There are laws that need to be followed and the whole point of probably this whole mask vs. no mask and vaccine vs. no vaccine is that nothing was law. It was all executive orders and mandates.
Yea, go back and reread.
What I actually said was that so long as company policy, vaccine or otherwise, falls within a legal construct then no rights or personal freedoms have been violated.
As for vaccines, mandated vaccinations for school, employment, etc is nothing new. But I'm done arguing over vaccines, it's a waste of time on here.
Point was, as an employee you accept the conditions set forth for employment and if you choose to not abide then they can choose to cut you loose. Nobody is guaranteed employment.
I did read just fine. The Covid vaccine does not fall into anything you are describing so employees not being able to work because of these MANDATES not laws that were put in place is violating their rights. By no means am I blaming the businesses as they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The full blame is on the government or dictatorship which is now NY.
Conditions of employment have to do with you representing the company or fulfilling your job duties, not taking a shot that had nothing to do with your employment.
I will not continue to argue as I've made my point.
Again, I have had direct insight into the legalities and policies regarding all of this as my DH has had to weigh in on and implement new company policy throughout COVID. He, along with other VP's, have had to to consult with the corporate parent company and legal counsel so I'm going to go ahead and trust that firsthand knowledge of what's right and legal over the opinons and frustrations of those on this forum.
Well since I was on the executive board of one of the top global institutions and also planned for pandemics well before Covid 19 gives me a little more insight then what can be discussed over dinner with my husband. And if we are touting our husbands, he also now sits on the executive committee of a top global company and I also know what they are discussing as well.
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| Posted 2/11/22 11:59 AM |
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soontobemommyof2
My boys...my everything <3
Member since 4/15 3635 total posts
Name:
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Posted by NervousNell
Why is the flu shot not mandated for school? I do believe flu is statistically more dangerous in children. Flu runs rampant in school and can take out whole classrooms. And you don't even have to quarantine for flu exposure.
Is that one not political enough? Not making pharma enough money?
They’re trying. There’s actually a bill that’s looking to make it mandatory for all schools. With the abolition of religious exemptions almost 3 yrs ago, they felt they could pass the flu and HPV vaccine bills with flying colors and then covid happened before being able to vote. But they haven’t forgotten about those bills.
Message edited 2/11/2022 12:08:13 PM.
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| Posted 2/11/22 12:02 PM |
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KarenK122
The Journey is the Destination
Member since 5/05 4430 total posts
Name:
Karen
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Posted by LuckyStar
I am vaccinated. It’s a condition of my employment (healthcare). Being fully vaccinated has always been a condition of my employment and I am well aware that I will cease to be employed if I refuse a vaccine.
I support the vaccine. I support the scientists who all but abandoned their families to develop it. Who did NOT get rich, regardless of what laypeople think. The data, both published and unpublished, of which I am qualified to review and interpret, does show efficacy in preventing hospitalization and death. As with any vaccine, it’s efficacy will waver depending on how a virus mutates and there is no way to be 100% clear as to the variables that come into play during mutation. So for me, healthcare or not, I’d choose to get vaccinated. I also 100% support the vaccine mandate for healthcare workers. Why? Because we took our jobs agreeing to be “fully vaccinated.” The majority of healthcare workers will have some rudimentary understanding of basic science (I would hope) and would be able to grasp the concept that viruses don’t care about a vaccine schedule and the definition of “fully vaccinated” is fluid.
But for private industry, in non public facing roles, which have never had a vaccine requirement I think that’s some gray area. If someone was hired into their job with no medical requirements to meet, it’s a hard sell to do it now.
Us vaccine supporters need to stop shoving the vaccine down peoples throats. We need to listen and understand where they are coming from. If people can’t see why others may be hesitant, they’re blind. I disagree with much of how the vaccine has been marketed and I can see why someone would refuse it. Not being able to understand this doesn’t mean you know more about the science, it means you lack the emotional intelligence to understand someone else’s perspective.
For anyone on either side of the coin, I suggest taking a look at ZZDogMD and Doctor Mike. They’re “medical influencers,” which, yes, I know sounds absurd but I actually think bringing accurate, non preachy information to the general public is brilliant.
Yes 100%. You were hired under the assumption you would be vaccinated per your institutions rules. I have no problem with that. I have the problem with a data entry clerk being forced to vaccinate for something that was not part of their employment agreement.
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| Posted 2/11/22 12:03 PM |
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Hofstra26
Love to Bake!
Member since 7/06 27915 total posts
Name:
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Posted by KarenK122
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by KarenK122
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by KarenK122
Posted by Hofstra26
Regarding a job and your freedoms.
You are NOT constitutionally promised a job. Your freedoms do NOT include that your employment is a guarantee. Why some have this idea in their head is beyond my understanding.
Being married to someone on the executive side of the argument where he's responsible for setting company policy, hiring and firing I've been able to have a deeper insight into how companies work.
Whether you agree with company policy or not, every business has the right to set conditions for employment so long as they fall within a legal boundary. Using my DH as an example, often times when a new policy is being considered (depending on what it is) his company will confer with legal counsel to make sure they are not violating any laws, ethics or rights.
Using the vaccine as an example, his company did consider mandating it and it would've been within their legal right to do so as a condition of continued employment. Ultimately they decided not to mandate, but they LEGALLY could have.
Point is, carrying on about how people's rights and freedoms are being taken away with regards to a job shows a lack of understanding as to how business and the law works. Companies/employers are within their rights to set conditions for employment and as an employee you are guaranteed nothing where your job is concerned. You can be "let go" for a myriad of reasons and that isn't taking away your rights, that's just how the the world works. How business works. As an employee you have the CHOICE to accept the conditions of your employment or find another job. Either way, it's a choice. Period. Whether you like the choice or think it's fair is a different discussion.
Understanding that corporate decisions are not personal and are set with the best interests of the company as a whole in mind is critical to understanding any and every mandate argument where employment is concerned. As long as laws aren't being violated, there is no threat to your rights.
A business does not have the right to mandate that any particular shot or vaccine be taken as part of their employee contract unless it is a federal or local law. There is no law for the Covid vaccine. By the government making businesses adhere to this mandate, not law, they were taking away employment from those who chose not to follow a mandate. What you are saying is the a company can do whatever they choose, which is not lawful. What's next, sorry you can't work here because you are autistic, you have diabetes, you have a mental disorder, you are the wrong color or are a homosexual? There are laws that need to be followed and the whole point of probably this whole mask vs. no mask and vaccine vs. no vaccine is that nothing was law. It was all executive orders and mandates.
Yea, go back and reread.
What I actually said was that so long as company policy, vaccine or otherwise, falls within a legal construct then no rights or personal freedoms have been violated.
As for vaccines, mandated vaccinations for school, employment, etc is nothing new. But I'm done arguing over vaccines, it's a waste of time on here.
Point was, as an employee you accept the conditions set forth for employment and if you choose to not abide then they can choose to cut you loose. Nobody is guaranteed employment.
I did read just fine. The Covid vaccine does not fall into anything you are describing so employees not being able to work because of these MANDATES not laws that were put in place is violating their rights. By no means am I blaming the businesses as they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The full blame is on the government or dictatorship which is now NY.
Conditions of employment have to do with you representing the company or fulfilling your job duties, not taking a shot that had nothing to do with your employment.
I will not continue to argue as I've made my point.
Again, I have had direct insight into the legalities and policies regarding all of this as my DH has had to weigh in on and implement new company policy throughout COVID. He, along with other VP's, have had to to consult with the corporate parent company and legal counsel so I'm going to go ahead and trust that firsthand knowledge of what's right and legal over the opinons and frustrations of those on this forum.
Well since I was on the executive board of one of the top global institutions and also planned for pandemics well before Covid 19 gives me a little more insight then what can be discussed over dinner with my husband. And if we are touting our husbands, he also now sits on the executive committee of a top global company and I also know what they are discussing as well.
No touting, just making the point that unless one has some level of direct insight into how company policy is set and the legalities involved it's easy to just keep yelling about violations of rights and freedoms, as some have. (not at all directed at you)
As I've said, I'm not someone who is a proponent of mandating the vaccine so I have no agenda.
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| Posted 2/11/22 12:14 PM |
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lululu
LIF Adult
Member since 7/05 9508 total posts
Name:
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Posted by Hofstra26
I will not continue to argue as I've made my point.
Again, I have had direct insight into the legalities and policies regarding all of this as my DH has had to weigh in on and implement new company policy throughout COVID. He, along with other VP's, have had to to consult with the corporate parent company and legal counsel so I'm going to go ahead and trust that firsthand knowledge of what's right and legal over the opions and frustrations of those on this forum.
By definition you have INDIRECT insight. You are not working for the company. You are discussing this with your husband when he gets home from his job. He has DIRECT insight.
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| Posted 2/11/22 12:35 PM |
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lululu
LIF Adult
Member since 7/05 9508 total posts
Name:
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Posted by Hofstra26
No touting, just making the point that unless one has some level of direct insight into how company policy is set and the legalities involved it's easy to just keep yelling about violations of rights and freedoms, as some have. (not at all directed at you)
As I've said, I'm not someone who is a proponent of mandating the vaccine so I have no agenda.
Again having DIRECT insight is actually working for the company. Nothing about your insight is direct.
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| Posted 2/11/22 12:38 PM |
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lululu
LIF Adult
Member since 7/05 9508 total posts
Name:
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Also, just to respond without making the quotes ridiculously long - Hofstra, of course businesses can make vaccines a requirement of employment. However, the federal government was/is trying to make it a requirement of private businesses to have vaccinated employees. How on earth is that constitutional? A PRIVATE business can not operate unless all of it's employees are vaccinated? That is crazytown to me.
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| Posted 2/11/22 12:44 PM |
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Hofstra26
Love to Bake!
Member since 7/06 27915 total posts
Name:
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Posted by lululu
Also, just to respond without making the quotes ridiculously long - Hofstra, of course businesses can make vaccines a requirement of employment. However, the federal government was/is trying to make it a requirement of private businesses to have vaccinated employees. How on earth is that constitutional? A PRIVATE business can not operate unless all of it's employees are vaccinated? That is crazytown to me.
Never said I agreed with it.
As far as constitutionality is concerned, that's for the SC to decide.
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| Posted 2/11/22 12:54 PM |
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NervousNell
Just another chapter in life..
Member since 11/09 54917 total posts
Name:
..being a mommy and being a wife!
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by lululu
Also, just to respond without making the quotes ridiculously long - Hofstra, of course businesses can make vaccines a requirement of employment. However, the federal government was/is trying to make it a requirement of private businesses to have vaccinated employees. How on earth is that constitutional? A PRIVATE business can not operate unless all of it's employees are vaccinated? That is crazytown to me.
Never said I agreed with it.
As far as constitutionality is concerned, that's for the SC to decide.
Thankfully our Supreme Court shot that one down.
However, NYC has made it a requirement for private businesses that operate in the 5 boroughs of NYC to require their employees to be vaccinated.
So apparently NYC is above the law of the Supreme Court.
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| Posted 2/11/22 1:19 PM |
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3girls1dog
LIF Adult
Member since 10/09 929 total posts
Name:
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Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Soontobemommy2 Totally agree with everything you said!!!
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| Posted 2/11/22 4:38 PM |
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NervousNell
Just another chapter in life..
Member since 11/09 54917 total posts
Name:
..being a mommy and being a wife!
|
Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Posted by KarenK122
Posted by LuckyStar
I am vaccinated. It’s a condition of my employment (healthcare). Being fully vaccinated has always been a condition of my employment and I am well aware that I will cease to be employed if I refuse a vaccine.
I support the vaccine. I support the scientists who all but abandoned their families to develop it. Who did NOT get rich, regardless of what laypeople think. The data, both published and unpublished, of which I am qualified to review and interpret, does show efficacy in preventing hospitalization and death. As with any vaccine, it’s efficacy will waver depending on how a virus mutates and there is no way to be 100% clear as to the variables that come into play during mutation. So for me, healthcare or not, I’d choose to get vaccinated. I also 100% support the vaccine mandate for healthcare workers. Why? Because we took our jobs agreeing to be “fully vaccinated.” The majority of healthcare workers will have some rudimentary understanding of basic science (I would hope) and would be able to grasp the concept that viruses don’t care about a vaccine schedule and the definition of “fully vaccinated” is fluid.
But for private industry, in non public facing roles, which have never had a vaccine requirement I think that’s some gray area. If someone was hired into their job with no medical requirements to meet, it’s a hard sell to do it now.
Us vaccine supporters need to stop shoving the vaccine down peoples throats. We need to listen and understand where they are coming from. If people can’t see why others may be hesitant, they’re blind. I disagree with much of how the vaccine has been marketed and I can see why someone would refuse it. Not being able to understand this doesn’t mean you know more about the science, it means you lack the emotional intelligence to understand someone else’s perspective.
For anyone on either side of the coin, I suggest taking a look at ZZDogMD and Doctor Mike. They’re “medical influencers,” which, yes, I know sounds absurd but I actually think bringing accurate, non preachy information to the general public is brilliant.
Yes 100%. You were hired under the assumption you would be vaccinated per your institutions rules. I have no problem with that. I have the problem with a data entry clerk being forced to vaccinate for something that was not part of their employment agreement.
See this is my thing. Yes, you have to abide by the conditions of employment you were HIRED under You took the job KNOWING them.
But what if you took the job and then mid stream they decide- guess what now you need to be vaccinated?
That's not right.
I would have never taken said job knowing that.
And in terms of legal precedence ..it's still early.
I'm curious to see what lawsuits come out of these private companies who feel they can mandate these vaccines because it's within their rights.
A few years from now we'll have some legal precedent as I am SURE there will be lawsuits to settle.
ETA- another thing I'm curious about...so we know the pharmaceutical companies can't be sued for vaccine injury. But what if your job forces you to get the vaccine and you get injured by it. Can you sue your company?
All things for these corporations to consider when mandating this.
Message edited 2/11/2022 4:50:19 PM.
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| Posted 2/11/22 4:47 PM |
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MrsWoods
LIF Adult
Member since 4/12 1461 total posts
Name:
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Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Too long to quote.
A job has every right to implement policies for employment..yes correct on that. However, if you are an employee at a company for many years and they now changed their policy from under you that you are to get a vaccine or get fired is where the problem lies.
They have taken away your RIGHT to decide on your health and well being and how you are to take care of yourself or you are to get fired. And for some who only have experience in one set environment your choice of employment may have the same exact policy and you are are FORCED to figure out how to survive financially. You are FORCED to make a decision on the spot for yourself and your family. They have taken away your FREEDOM of a decision for your health for a chance to stay as an employee.
That is what’s wrong. And luckily not all states are on board with this but NYers have to suffer with these new mandates shoved down their throats…that yes TAKE AWAY YOUR RIGHTS
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| Posted 2/11/22 5:42 PM |
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Re: Help me understand how our rights are being taken away
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by KarenK122
Posted by Hofstra26
Posted by KarenK122
Posted by Hofstra26
Regarding a job and your freedoms.
You are NOT constitutionally promised a job. Your freedoms do NOT include that your employment is a guarantee. Why some have this idea in their head is beyond my understanding.
Being married to someone on the executive side of the argument where he's responsible for setting company policy, hiring and firing I've been able to have a deeper insight into how companies work.
Whether you agree with company policy or not, every business has the right to set conditions for employment so long as they fall within a legal boundary. Using my DH as an example, often times when a new policy is being considered (depending on what it is) his company will confer with legal counsel to make sure they are not violating any laws, ethics or rights.
Using the vaccine as an example, his company did consider mandating it and it would've been within their legal right to do so as a condition of continued employment. Ultimately they decided not to mandate, but they LEGALLY could have.
Point is, carrying on about how people's rights and freedoms are being taken away with regards to a job shows a lack of understanding as to how business and the law works. Companies/employers are within their rights to set conditions for employment and as an employee you are guaranteed nothing where your job is concerned. You can be "let go" for a myriad of reasons and that isn't taking away your rights, that's just how the the world works. How business works. As an employee you have the CHOICE to accept the conditions of your employment or find another job. Either way, it's a choice. Period. Whether you like the choice or think it's fair is a different discussion.
Understanding that corporate decisions are not personal and are set with the best interests of the company as a whole in mind is critical to understanding any and every mandate argument where employment is concerned. As long as laws aren't being violated, there is no threat to your rights.
A business does not have the right to mandate that any particular shot or vaccine be taken as part of their employee contract unless it is a federal or local law. There is no law for the Covid vaccine. By the government making businesses adhere to this mandate, not law, they were taking away employment from those who chose not to follow a mandate. What you are saying is the a company can do whatever they choose, which is not lawful. What's next, sorry you can't work here because you are autistic, you have diabetes, you have a mental disorder, you are the wrong color or are a homosexual? There are laws that need to be followed and the whole point of probably this whole mask vs. no mask and vaccine vs. no vaccine is that nothing was law. It was all executive orders and mandates.
Yea, go back and reread.
What I actually said was that so long as company policy, vaccine or otherwise, falls within a legal construct then no rights or personal freedoms have been violated.
As for vaccines, mandated vaccinations for school, employment, etc is nothing new. But I'm done arguing over vaccines, it's a waste of time on here.
Point was, as an employee you accept the conditions set forth for employment and if you choose to not abide then they can choose to cut you loose. Nobody is guaranteed employment.
I did read just fine. The Covid vaccine does not fall into anything you are describing so employees not being able to work because of these MANDATES not laws that were put in place is violating their rights. By no means am I blaming the businesses as they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The full blame is on the government or dictatorship which is now NY.
Conditions of employment have to do with you representing the company or fulfilling your job duties, not taking a shot that had nothing to do with your employment.
I will not continue to argue as I've made my point.
Again, I have had direct insight into the legalities and policies regarding all of this as my DH has had to weigh in on and implement new company policy throughout COVID. He, along with other VP's, have had to to consult with the corporate parent company and legal counsel so I'm going to go ahead and trust that firsthand knowledge of what's right and legal over the opions and frustrations of those on this forum.
NM others have addressed.
Message edited 2/11/2022 6:30:00 PM.
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| Posted 2/11/22 6:16 PM |
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