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History

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Jenhos
Maeve

Member since 6/05

3273 total posts

Name:

Re: History

Posted by GoldenRod

Posted by Jenhos

What do we do with statues of President that were slave owners?

Condoleeza Rice made some good comments about not sanitizing our history.

“When you start wiping out your history, sanitizing your history to make you feel better, it’s a bad thing,” Rice said.

“I’m a firm believer in ‘keep your history before you.’ And so I don’t actually want to rename things that were named for slave owners,” Rice replied. “I want us to have to look at the names and recognize what they did, and be able to tell our kids what they did and for them to have a sense of their own history.”

I love everything she said. I wish she would run for president!



As evil as we now know that slavery is, at the time, it was legal in our country, and almost expected, to own slaves. However, violently taking arms against the US to try to secede is the ultimate in treason. It's hard to find a more egregious offense against this country (maybe colluding with a known enemy of our country...).

It's two completely different stories. GW owning slaves is not even in the same ballpark as R.E. Lee committing treason against our country.

Also, the statues and images of GW don't worship the fact that he owned slaves, but that he was one of the Founding Fathers of our country. The Confederate statues celebrate the fact that these men fought against the United States. Museums acknowledge and remember GW's slaves, and many other of his negative attributes, but we don't celebrate them.

Nobody is looking to sanitize history, we just don't want to celebrate and worship treason.



I would bet many people in this country disagree with your thoughts on slavery. Legal or not at the time, many people still harbor ill feelings about it.

Based on your answer if they started to call for statues of Presidents that were slave owners or prominent figures like Chrtistopher Colombus (who was known to be a brutal slave owner) to be removed, would you disagree with them?

Posted 8/16/17 9:25 AM
 

GoldenRod
10 years on LIF!

Member since 11/06

26787 total posts

Name:
Shawn

Re: History

Posted by Jenhos

Posted by GoldenRod

Posted by Jenhos

What do we do with statues of President that were slave owners?

Condoleeza Rice made some good comments about not sanitizing our history.

“When you start wiping out your history, sanitizing your history to make you feel better, it’s a bad thing,” Rice said.

“I’m a firm believer in ‘keep your history before you.’ And so I don’t actually want to rename things that were named for slave owners,” Rice replied. “I want us to have to look at the names and recognize what they did, and be able to tell our kids what they did and for them to have a sense of their own history.”

I love everything she said. I wish she would run for president!



As evil as we now know that slavery is, at the time, it was legal in our country, and almost expected, to own slaves. However, violently taking arms against the US to try to secede is the ultimate in treason. It's hard to find a more egregious offense against this country (maybe colluding with a known enemy of our country...).

It's two completely different stories. GW owning slaves is not even in the same ballpark as R.E. Lee committing treason against our country.

Also, the statues and images of GW don't worship the fact that he owned slaves, but that he was one of the Founding Fathers of our country. The Confederate statues celebrate the fact that these men fought against the United States. Museums acknowledge and remember GW's slaves, and many other of his negative attributes, but we don't celebrate them.

Nobody is looking to sanitize history, we just don't want to celebrate and worship treason.



I would bet many people in this country disagree with your thoughts on slavery. Legal or not at the time, many people still harbor ill feelings about it.

Based on your answer if they started to call for statues of Presidents that were slave owners or prominent figures like Chrtistopher Colombus (who was known to be a brutal slave owner) to be removed, would you disagree with them?



Yes, because as I stated before, slavery was legal, so you can't punish people for following the law during their time, no matter how horrible and evil the law was at the time.
Also, like I said before, statues of Washington or Columbus aren't celebrating their illegal evil activity. Statues of Confederates DO celebrate their illegal, treasonous activity.

There are a lot of laws I don't agree with, but if the law is in place, and someone is following it, they personally can't be criticized for following it. The law itself can be criticized, but not those actively following it.

Washington also didn't let his wife vote, didn't let non-land owners vote, etc. I don't blame him for those decisions, I blame the laws of the time. (which thankfully have changed)

Posted 8/16/17 9:44 AM
 

LIRascal
drama. daily.

Member since 3/11

7285 total posts

Name:
Michelle

History

I would also like to add that while many of these monuments and statues glorify Civil war time period figures, they weren't erected in the time period following the war, nor at the turn of the century. Most of these were commissioned in the 1920’s to the 1960's at the height of the segregation and the Jim Crow South, the height of nativist America, and the rise of the power and intimidation of the KKK in the US

Posted 8/16/17 11:53 AM
 

Chai77
Brighter days ahead

Member since 4/07

7364 total posts

Name:

Re: History

Yes, I think these statues and monuments should come down. They are out there glorifying slavery and Confederate treason against the United States. And they are now a rallying point for neo Nazi/white supremacists.

I have been to Germany and I really like what they have done with Nazi artifacts etc. We visited the "Nazi Dokumentation Zentrum"- Documentation Center in Nuremberg. They are very clear with their language that it is NOT a museum, which I take to mean they do not wish to glorify Nazism. They seek to remember, and solemnly, so that history is not repeated with generational forgetting. That is what I think we should do with these Confederate pieces.

Message edited 8/16/2017 1:43:11 PM.

Posted 8/16/17 1:42 PM
 

Pumpkin1
LIF Adult

Member since 12/05

3715 total posts

Name:

Re: History

http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/article/h-1643

Posted 8/16/17 9:36 PM
 

LIRascal
drama. daily.

Member since 3/11

7285 total posts

Name:
Michelle

History

Chai77, I agree.
History is there. It's written, it's in our books and part of the story of our country, both good and bad. However, glorification of crimes isn't appropriate. The monuments must come down

Posted 8/16/17 10:35 PM
 

Pumpkin1
LIF Adult

Member since 12/05

3715 total posts

Name:

Re: History

Posted by LIRascal

Chai77, I agree.
History is there. It's written, it's in our books and part of the story of our country, both good and bad. However, glorification of crimes isn't appropriate. The monuments must come down



These statues should come down. They were part of an effort to rewrite history and apparently it was working (see my link in a different post). They are more like propaganda than they are historical.

Posted 8/17/17 8:52 AM
 

Jenhos
Maeve

Member since 6/05

3273 total posts

Name:

Re: History

The slippery slope has begun.

Clinton accusers are asking for his statue in SD to come down

A Chicago pastor is calling for names of parks with Lincoln and Washintons names on them to be changed because of ties to slavery.

Vandals torched a statue of Lincoln in Chicago

ESPN had to apologize for holding an "auction" draft in which players were auctioned during a draft (the people plaumying only had a certain amount of money to build their team). People were offended because it too closely resembles slavery because some of the players auctioned were black.


Posted 8/19/17 11:00 AM
 

Naturalmama
Love my boys!!

Member since 1/12

3548 total posts

Name:
Christine

Re: History

Posted by Jenhos

The slippery slope has begun.

Clinton accusers are asking for his statue in SD to come down

A Chicago pastor is calling for names of parks with Lincoln and Washintons names on them to be changed because of ties to slavery.

Vandals torched a statue of Lincoln in Chicago

ESPN had to apologize for holding an "auction" draft in which players were auctioned during a draft (the people plaumying only had a certain amount of money to build their team). People were offended because it too closely resembles slavery because some of the players auctioned were black.





There is also the whole issue with the Times Square subway station. Tiles are in an X and they are blue and red- so they will be taken down. I agreed with the statues being taken down- but I also said that the day would come that people would begin to just want everything and anything changed and taken down, and it would be going way too far. I just didn't realize it would be 5 days later.

Message edited 8/19/2017 1:19:28 PM.

Posted 8/19/17 1:19 PM
 

Jenhos
Maeve

Member since 6/05

3273 total posts

Name:

Re: History

Posted by Naturalmama

Posted by Jenhos

The slippery slope has begun.

Clinton accusers are asking for his statue in SD to come down

A Chicago pastor is calling for names of parks with Lincoln and Washintons names on them to be changed because of ties to slavery.

Vandals torched a statue of Lincoln in Chicago

ESPN had to apologize for holding an "auction" draft in which players were auctioned during a draft (the people plaumying only had a certain amount of money to build their team). People were offended because it too closely resembles slavery because some of the players auctioned were black.





There is also the whole issue with the Times Square subway station. Tiles are in an X and they are blue and red- so they will be taken down. I agreed with the statues being taken down- but I also said that the day would come that people would begin to just want everything and anything changed and taken down, and it would be going way too far. I just didn't realize it would be 5 days later.




I saw that as well. Yikes have been there for 90+ years. There are no stars on it. The MTA can't afford to change the tiles! Chat Icon I am not.opposed to the statues being removed or moved but it has opened Pandora box. Someone will always be offended by something.

Posted 8/19/17 2:15 PM
 

GoldenRod
10 years on LIF!

Member since 11/06

26787 total posts

Name:
Shawn

Re: History

External Image

Personally, I think it should be redone since they did a terrible job putting up the tiles... Chat Icon

It's not random enough to be "artistic", but not neat enough to be "professional".

I'm not OCD, but I do like things to be in straight lines and patterns.

Posted 8/19/17 3:16 PM
 

Jenhos
Maeve

Member since 6/05

3273 total posts

Name:

Re: History

Posted by GoldenRod

IMAGE

Personally, I think it should be redone since they did a terrible job putting up the tiles... Chat Icon

It's not random enough to be "artistic", but not neat enough to be "professional".

I'm not OCD, but I do like things to be in straight lines and patterns.




Looks better than most of the stations in our subways!!

Posted 8/19/17 4:18 PM
 

ChilisWife
God Bless America

Member since 5/05

3556 total posts

Name:
A.K.

Re: History

We can take down all the statues in the world and try to erase any reference to the past if that makes people feel better and less offended. However, that isn't going to change people's hearts or minds, and at the end of the day, our history is NEVER going to change. Treating the symptom instead of the underlying condition isn't solving anything and in the short term (and possibly long term) it makes it worse because it breeds resentment and further inflames people's hate.

There are roughly 300 million people in this country and dare I say it, the vast majority of them are good people who are not violent, who are not racist, who are not hateful, and who want only peace. The media is focusing 24/7 on only several thousand people who happen to be on the fringe and making it seem like they are taking over America. They are not. But if we continue to play into the whole "white people are X" and "black people are Y" and "gay people are Z" narrative that is being forced down our throats, the more divided we will become.

I couldn't care less about statues and I'm not saying we shouldn't stand up for what is right and not to oppose those who are wrong. All I am saying is that the only way to make strides in overcoming the prejudices and stereotypes that some people still hold, is by our own actions, how we treat people, how we keep our own minds open and what we teach our children from a young age. But taking down a statue or two isn't going to do it.

Posted 8/19/17 7:03 PM
 

Naturalmama
Love my boys!!

Member since 1/12

3548 total posts

Name:
Christine

Re: History

Posted by ChilisWife

We can take down all the statues in the world and try to erase any reference to the past if that makes people feel better and less offended. However, that isn't going to change people's hearts or minds, and at the end of the day, our history is NEVER going to change. Treating the symptom instead of the underlying condition isn't solving anything and in the short term (and possibly long term) it makes it worse because it breeds resentment and further inflames people's hate.

There are roughly 300 million people in this country and dare I say it, the vast majority of them are good people who are not violent, who are not racist, who are not hateful, and who want only peace. The media is focusing 24/7 on only several thousand people who happen to be on the fringe and making it seem like they are taking over America. They are not. But if we continue to play into the whole "white people are X" and "black people are Y" and "gay people are Z" narrative that is being forced down our throats, the more divided we will become.

I couldn't care less about statues and I'm not saying we shouldn't stand up for what is right and not to oppose those who are wrong. All I am saying is that the only way to make strides in overcoming the prejudices and stereotypes that some people still hold, is by our own actions, how we treat people, how we keep our own minds open and what we teach our children from a young age. But taking down a statue or two isn't going to do it.




WOW. Greatest thing I have read on the topic. You say it far better than I ever could. I may use this to generate my own words for a Facebook status I have been dying to write, but I have had trouble finding the words that would not get me crucified all over social media.

Posted 8/19/17 7:18 PM
 

Jenhos
Maeve

Member since 6/05

3273 total posts

Name:

Re: History

Posted by ChilisWife

We can take down all the statues in the world and try to erase any reference to the past if that makes people feel better and less offended. However, that isn't going to change people's hearts or minds, and at the end of the day, our history is NEVER going to change. Treating the symptom instead of the underlying condition isn't solving anything and in the short term (and possibly long term) it makes it worse because it breeds resentment and further inflames people's hate.

There are roughly 300 million people in this country and dare I say it, the vast majority of them are good people who are not violent, who are not racist, who are not hateful, and who want only peace. The media is focusing 24/7 on only several thousand people who happen to be on the fringe and making it seem like they are taking over America. They are not. But if we continue to play into the whole "white people are X" and "black people are Y" and "gay people are Z" narrative that is being forced down our throats, the more divided we will become.

I couldn't care less about statues and I'm not saying we shouldn't stand up for what is right and not to oppose those who are wrong. All I am saying is that the only way to make strides in overcoming the prejudices and stereotypes that some people still hold, is by our own actions, how we treat people, how we keep our own minds open and what we teach our children from a young age. But taking down a statue or two isn't going to do it.




Totally true and well said! I would actually rather see the money being used to remove the statues be put toward scholarships.l

Posted 8/19/17 10:43 PM
 

RainyDay
LIF Adult

Member since 6/15

3856 total posts

Name:

Re: History

Posted by Jenhos

Posted by ChilisWife

We can take down all the statues in the world and try to erase any reference to the past if that makes people feel better and less offended. However, that isn't going to change people's hearts or minds, and at the end of the day, our history is NEVER going to change. Treating the symptom instead of the underlying condition isn't solving anything and in the short term (and possibly long term) it makes it worse because it breeds resentment and further inflames people's hate.

There are roughly 300 million people in this country and dare I say it, the vast majority of them are good people who are not violent, who are not racist, who are not hateful, and who want only peace. The media is focusing 24/7 on only several thousand people who happen to be on the fringe and making it seem like they are taking over America. They are not. But if we continue to play into the whole "white people are X" and "black people are Y" and "gay people are Z" narrative that is being forced down our throats, the more divided we will become.

I couldn't care less about statues and I'm not saying we shouldn't stand up for what is right and not to oppose those who are wrong. All I am saying is that the only way to make strides in overcoming the prejudices and stereotypes that some people still hold, is by our own actions, how we treat people, how we keep our own minds open and what we teach our children from a young age. But taking down a statue or two isn't going to do it.




Totally true and well said! I would actually rather see the money being used to remove the statues be put toward scholarships.l



That will never happen

Posted 8/20/17 7:04 AM
 

smdl
I love Gary too..on a plate!

Member since 5/06

32461 total posts

Name:
me

History

Let's be honest, most of those monuments and statues were not from the time of the actual person or even close to their death. Many, decades later. They belong in museums or memorials. Like other artifacts within a context. I find the confederate flag offensive. There is a difference between keeping one's heritage and wishful thinking of living in a era that no longer exist over 150 YEARS. I lived in the South. They know exactly what this flag is. What it stands for. They still call people Yankees. Some still wish slaves existed. Let's not get naive. Many have not moved on. And this is why those statues and flag are fought for.

Posted 8/20/17 7:09 AM
 

Jenhos
Maeve

Member since 6/05

3273 total posts

Name:

Re: History

Posted by smdl

Let's be honest, most of those monuments and statues were not from the time of the actual person or even close to their death. Many, decades later. They belong in museums or memorials. Like other artifacts within a context. I find the confederate flag offensive. There is a difference between keeping one's heritage and wishful thinking of living in a era that no longer exist over 150 YEARS. I lived in the South. They know exactly what this flag is. What it stands for. They still call people Yankees. Some still wish slaves existed. Let's not get naive. Many have not moved on. And this is why those statues and flag are fought for.



I don't disagree with this but how and where do you draw the line? We are already seeing a call for other thi ngs to be removed or changed. What are your thoughts on the few I listed above?

Posted 8/20/17 8:36 AM
 

smdl
I love Gary too..on a plate!

Member since 5/06

32461 total posts

Name:
me

Re: History

Posted by Jenhos

Posted by smdl

Let's be honest, most of those monuments and statues were not from the time of the actual person or even close to their death. Many, decades later. They belong in museums or memorials. Like other artifacts within a context. I find the confederate flag offensive. There is a difference between keeping one's heritage and wishful thinking of living in a era that no longer exist over 150 YEARS. I lived in the South. They know exactly what this flag is. What it stands for. They still call people Yankees. Some still wish slaves existed. Let's not get naive. Many have not moved on. And this is why those statues and flag are fought for.



I don't disagree with this but how and where do you draw the line? We are already seeing a call for other thi ngs to be removed or changed. What are your thoughts on the few I listed above?



Not everyone will ever be happy. But not a display of a period of slavery and oppression in people's face. General Lee fought for the South to keep their way of live and slavery. This is different.

Posted 8/20/17 9:52 AM
 

Jenhos
Maeve

Member since 6/05

3273 total posts

Name:

Re: History

Posted by smdl

Posted by Jenhos

Posted by smdl

Let's be honest, most of those monuments and statues were not from the time of the actual person or even close to their death. Many, decades later. They belong in museums or memorials. Like other artifacts within a context. I find the confederate flag offensive. There is a difference between keeping one's heritage and wishful thinking of living in a era that no longer exist over 150 YEARS. I lived in the South. They know exactly what this flag is. What it stands for. They still call people Yankees. Some still wish slaves existed. Let's not get naive. Many have not moved on. And this is why those statues and flag are fought for.



I don't disagree with this but how and where do you draw the line? We are already seeing a call for other thi ngs to be removed or changed. What are your thoughts on the few I listed above?



Not everyone will ever be happy. But not a display of a period of slavery and oppression in people's face. General Lee fought for the South to keep their way of live and slavery. This is different.



They won't all be happy but where do you draw the line? Hard to say that one thing is more offensive than another.
This is going to get worse before it gets better.

Posted 8/20/17 10:27 AM
 

Diane
Hope is Contagious....catch it

Member since 5/05

30563 total posts

Name:
D

Re: History

Posted by ChilisWife

We can take down all the statues in the world and try to erase any reference to the past if that makes people feel better and less offended. However, that isn't going to change people's hearts or minds, and at the end of the day, our history is NEVER going to change. Treating the symptom instead of the underlying condition isn't solving anything and in the short term (and possibly long term) it makes it worse because it breeds resentment and further inflames people's hate.

There are roughly 300 million people in this country and dare I say it, the vast majority of them are good people who are not violent, who are not racist, who are not hateful, and who want only peace. The media is focusing 24/7 on only several thousand people who happen to be on the fringe and making it seem like they are taking over America. They are not. But if we continue to play into the whole "white people are X" and "black people are Y" and "gay people are Z" narrative that is being forced down our throats, the more divided we will become.

I couldn't care less about statues and I'm not saying we shouldn't stand up for what is right and not to oppose those who are wrong. All I am saying is that the only way to make strides in overcoming the prejudices and stereotypes that some people still hold, is by our own actions, how we treat people, how we keep our own minds open and what we teach our children from a young age. But taking down a statue or two isn't going to do it.





well said!!!!!

Message edited 8/20/2017 10:31:16 AM.

Posted 8/20/17 10:30 AM
 

MC09
arrrghhh!!!!

Member since 2/09

5662 total posts

Name:
Me speaks pirate!

Re: History

Quick question, why are we honoring anti-American traitors that committed treason with statues in public spaces? History is fine but that's what books are for. Let's be honest, a lot of the people fighting to keep these statues up are not fighting for history. We all know what they're really fighting for. Let's not romanticize their motives. Yes, it's important to preserve history, not that it ever really can be erased, and we should face the ugly truth of our history. At the end of the day these men were traitors that lost the war, and a statue seems like an awfully big participation trophy for coming in last. I'm just trying to understand the logic.

Posted 8/20/17 10:46 AM
 

JennP
LIF Adult

Member since 10/06

3986 total posts

Name:
Jenn

Re: History

Posted by Diane

Posted by ChilisWife

We can take down all the statues in the world and try to erase any reference to the past if that makes people feel better and less offended. However, that isn't going to change people's hearts or minds, and at the end of the day, our history is NEVER going to change. Treating the symptom instead of the underlying condition isn't solving anything and in the short term (and possibly long term) it makes it worse because it breeds resentment and further inflames people's hate.

There are roughly 300 million people in this country and dare I say it, the vast majority of them are good people who are not violent, who are not racist, who are not hateful, and who want only peace. The media is focusing 24/7 on only several thousand people who happen to be on the fringe and making it seem like they are taking over America. They are not. But if we continue to play into the whole "white people are X" and "black people are Y" and "gay people are Z" narrative that is being forced down our throats, the more divided we will become.

I couldn't care less aboout statues and I'm not saying we shouldn't stand up for what is right and not to oppose those who are wrong. All I am saying is that the only way to make strides in overcoming the prejudices and stereotypes that some people still hold, is by our own actions, how we treat people, how we keep our own minds open and what we teach our children from a young age. But taking down a statue or two isn't going to do it.





well said!!!!!



It's not going to do it, but I think it's safe to say that removing a symbol that was SPECIFICALLY erected to stand for hate, racism, and oppression is a good place to start.

Posted 8/20/17 3:57 PM
 

JennP
LIF Adult

Member since 10/06

3986 total posts

Name:
Jenn

Re: History

Posted by Jenhos

Posted by smdl

Posted by Jenhos

Posted by smdl

Let's be honest, most of those monuments and statues were not from the time of the actual person or even close to their death. Many, decades later. They belong in museums or memorials. Like other artifacts within a context. I find the confederate flag offensive. There is a difference between keeping one's heritage and wishful thinking of living in a era that no longer exist over 150 YEARS. I lived in the South. They know exactly what this flag is. What it stands for. They still call people Yankees. Some still wish slaves existed. Let's not get naive. Many have not moved on. And this is why those statues and flag are fought for.



I don't disagree with this but how and where do you draw the line? We are already seeing a call for other thi ngs to be removed or changed. What are your thoughts on the few I listed above?



Not everyone will ever be happy. But not a display of a period of slavery and oppression in people's face. General Lee fought for the South to keep their way of live and slavery. This is different.



They won't all be happy but where do you draw the line? Hard to say that one thing is more offensive than another.
This is going to get worse before it gets better.



I think we as a society just have to figure out where to draw the line.

As white people, we're part of the problem if we're going to tell people of color that they have to continue to live with the glorification of people who stand for such blatant hatred because "sorry, we don't know where to draw the line."

Posted 8/20/17 3:59 PM
 

Palebride
I am an amazing bakist

Member since 5/05

13673 total posts

Name:
Lori

Re: History

A few thoughts:
History is taught in schools. History is taught in museums. Taking down Confederate monuments will not cause history to be forgotten....but it will show all of those victimized by slavery that they matter.

Traitors should not be memorialized. They should be remembered, but not honored.

The majority of the Confederate statues were put up quickly and cheaply and they're not even worth keeping anyway....did you see how easily that one was torn down and how it crumpled? Why keep that?

Germany does not honor the Nazis or Hitler....they honor the victims of those people. They know their country has an horrific past, so they work really hard to make sure that the evil that was done by them is not forgotten....but it is also not glorified. We could learn a thing of two from them!

Posted 8/20/17 3:59 PM
 
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