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LIVINMYDREAM
LIF Adolescent
Member since 12/07 833 total posts
Name:
Erin
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Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet here, but I was just reading the article on MSN about this little girl ..
My question is what would you do ?
I know it's so hard to say not being in the situation . I could not imagine first of all the pain that this mother is going through BUT in my own opinion , I don't think I could ever, after being told by so many doctors, that my child is brain dead, think there would be any logical explination to attempt to keep her alive via artificial means. And to boot , ask for donations to help her cause. I'm not trying to sound cold hearted but it just leaves me wondering...
Ok ladies..... Sound off ...
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Posted 1/10/14 3:11 PM  |
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jessnbrian
Only God knows His plan for us
Member since 4/13 7238 total posts
Name:
Jessica
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Thoughts on the
My concern is why isn't anyone talking about the responsibility the hospital and doctor have to this child and family for the death... how on earth did a simple tonsillectomy result in this child's death?????
I agree, I could never allow my child to be kept alive as she is, I would want my child to be free to move on.
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| Posted 1/10/14 3:24 PM |
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LIVINMYDREAM
LIF Adolescent
Member since 12/07 833 total posts
Name:
Erin
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
Oh I would ABSOLUTELY be asking all of those questions . It just all seems so bizarre to me .
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| Posted 1/10/14 3:27 PM |
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LSP2005
Bunny kisses are so cute!
Member since 5/05 19453 total posts
Name:
L
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
First I feel horrible for the family, but with that said the parents are delusional.
When the story first broke, they said the girl did not want the surgery. I am sure the parents feel immense guilt over this because they pushed her to have the surgery over her wishes.
Unfortunately, this girl cannot come back to life. She is brain dead. Multiple physicians examined her and all came to the same conclusion. The family was unable to produce a single physician who was able to come to any other conclusion. Should the hospital pay for the negligence in her death, absolutely. But I feel the court was wrong to prolong the family's agony. Someone in their community needed to explain to them the difference between a coma, vegetative state, and brain dead. Once someone is bread dead, that is it, they are dead. Now someone may come back from coma or a vegetative state, but no one has come out of being brain dead. Our medical technology is not there at this point.
I feel that the family is delusional and likely needs a lot of therapy to handle the loss of their child. At the end of the day, I truly feel badly for their loss, but they are doing nothing to help their dead daughter, they are only prolonging the inevitable. The fact that a medical provider would put a feeding tube in now, is truly awful. They too are hoping for a large payday for their "help." So I think it is awful and disgusting and disgraces the memory of a young girl who was lost too soon for her time.
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| Posted 1/10/14 3:31 PM |
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jessnbrian
Only God knows His plan for us
Member since 4/13 7238 total posts
Name:
Jessica
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Thoughts on the
It's really bizarre, I don't even know what to think of the situation, honestly. I mean, on the one hand, I feel bad for the parents, they're being forced to believe and accept that their child is dead - for (honestly) reasons unknown... That's why DNR's are so vital.
I am not one who believes in frivolous medical malpractice lawsuits (it's one of the biggest reasons why healthcare costs in this country are as high as they are)... but this is a case where I would strongly recommend suing.
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| Posted 1/10/14 3:32 PM |
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LSP2005
Bunny kisses are so cute!
Member since 5/05 19453 total posts
Name:
L
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
Posted by jessnbrian
My concern is why isn't anyone talking about the responsibility the hospital and doctor have to this child and family for the death... how on earth did a simple tonsillectomy result in this child's death?????
I agree, I could never allow my child to be kept alive as she is, I would want my child to be free to move on.
There are so many things that the hospital and physicians did wrong.
1. Why didn't the doctor ask the family to put the girl on a diet to help her fix the problem first? The family said the doctors never told the family the child needed to loose weight when presented with this question.
2. Why did the doctor not tell the family not to feed her after the surgery? This is basic post op surgical care. Supposedly the family gave her regular food after the surgery, and then she started to bleed. I only read this in an article so I am not 100% sure of its truth, which is why I wrote supposedly.
3. Why didn't the hospital have someone explain the difference between coma, vegetative state, and brain dead? This is huge to me. I feel like someone needed to sit down with them to explain everything and I feel like no one did.
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| Posted 1/10/14 3:38 PM |
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jessnbrian
Only God knows His plan for us
Member since 4/13 7238 total posts
Name:
Jessica
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
Posted by LSP2005
There are so many things that the hospital and physicians did wrong.
1. Why didn't the doctor ask the family to put the girl on a diet to help her fix the problem first? The family said the doctors never told the family the child needed to loose weight when presented with this question.
2. Why did the doctor not tell the family not to feed her after the surgery? This is basic post op surgical care. Supposedly the family gave her regular food after the surgery, and then she started to bleed. I only read this in an article so I am not 100% sure of its truth, which is why I wrote supposedly.
3. Why didn't the hospital have someone explain the difference between coma, vegetative state, and brain dead? This is huge to me. I feel like someone needed to sit down with them to explain everything and I feel like no one did.
I thought the child bled out during the procedure, not after. Either way, there are SO many things that went wrong here. I keep hearing varying reports - it was a simple tonsillectomy, or a sleep apnea repair, etc. First, I've NEVER heard of a CHILD (and that's what she was) getting surgery to fix sleep apnea... and absolutely, she should have lost weight PRIOR to surgery even becoming an option... or those mouth guards, or the CPAP machine. This case is just foul on so many levels.
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| Posted 1/10/14 3:42 PM |
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MsSissy
xoxoxo
Member since 3/07 39159 total posts
Name:
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
What is really scary to me. Is how the hospital refused to give her a feeding tube. They were basically letting her stave.
How does the hospitals decision trump a family member. They had to go to court to get permission to move her to a new facility where the received the feeding tube.
As for my thoughts on their decision. I have no opinion on it.
It really is something that you don't know till you're in it.
The closest I ever came to something like this was when my STBX suffered a severe brain injury. We didn't know what to expect the 1st few days, weeks. I wasn't his wife at the time, only his fiancé and everyone was asking me what I would do. It's something I don't wish on anyone and something you can't decide on till you're in the situation.
I believe she will be going to New Beginnings Community Center. Or she is working with the founder. I know Allyson and one of the other women that run it. We would go to support groups with them before they decided to do more and open up a facility for brain injured patients. I have seen some amazing recoveries through the years. Including Allyson's father.
According to one dr:
California defines a loss of brain activity as legal death, but both Jahi’s family and Dr. Paul Byrne, who examined Jahi while she was at Children’s, said that despite the hospital’s insistence that Jahi was “brain dead,” her heart was beating on its own, her organs were functioning and she was responding with movements to family members.
Link
This is such a personal decision and should be left as such. I would HATE to be told my decision doesn't matter. Can you imagine having all hope taken from you?
Message edited 1/10/2014 3:47:46 PM.
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| Posted 1/10/14 3:44 PM |
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
Posted by MsSissy
What is really scary to me. Is how the hospital refused to give her a feeding tube. They were basically letting her stave.
How does the hospitals decision trump a family member. They had to go to court to get permission to move her to a new facility where the received the feeding tube.
As for my thoughts on their decision. I have no opinion on it.
It really is something that you don't know till you're in it.
The closest I ever came to something like this was when my STBX suffered a severe brain injury. We didn't know what to expect the 1st few days, weeks. I wasn't his wife at the time, only his fiancé and everyone was asking me what I would do. It's something I don't wish on anyone and something you can't decide on till you're in the situation.
I believe she will be going to New Beginnings Community Center. Or she is working with the founder. I know Allyson and one of the other women that run it. We would go to support groups with them before they decided to do more and open up a facility for brain injured patients. I have seen some amazing recoveries through the years. Including Allyson's father.
I agree with this. I'm glad the parents fought and won and can make the decisions, whatever they may decide.
I can't say what I would do, but I would sure as he'll want whatever I decided to be MY decision and not a doctor's, or judge's.
Whether you agree or not, I'm thankful that there are people out there willing to help this family. I hope they eventually make peace with whatever the outcome may be.
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| Posted 1/10/14 3:48 PM |
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adeline27
LIF Adult
Member since 5/06 3121 total posts
Name:
Angela
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
I was shocked at the hospital spokesmans response to the family wanting to keep her on life support. He sounded so nasty and cold. I don't think they handled anything the way they should have.
To answer your question I couldn't keep my child like that after being convinced there could be nothing to bring my child back. I think this family is wanting time to see if by chance she will recover. I don't think they understand brain dead but if someone here can explain, the mother says the child responds to her voice and touch is that possible being brain dead? Is it just nerves twitching? It is very very sad.
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| Posted 1/10/14 3:51 PM |
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
Posted by MsSissy
According to one dr:
California defines a loss of brain activity as legal death, but both Jahi’s family and Dr. Paul Byrne, who examined Jahi while she was at Children’s, said that despite the hospital’s insistence that Jahi was “brain dead,” her heart was beating on its own, her organs were functioning and she was responding with movements to family members.
Link
This is such a personal decision and should be left as such. I would HATE to be told my decision doesn't matter. Can you imagine having all hope taken from you?
Why does everyone assume that the parents "don't understand"? They may very well understand and still make this choice to see what may happen. Medical miracles have happened before, maybe they are hoping for their own. Not anyone else's business to judge them or assume they don't get it. Obviously, the facility that is taking the girl feels the same as the parents.
Message edited 1/10/2014 4:00:17 PM.
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| Posted 1/10/14 3:52 PM |
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LIVINMYDREAM
LIF Adolescent
Member since 12/07 833 total posts
Name:
Erin
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
Posted by MsSissy
What is really scary to me. Is how the hospital refused to give her a feeding tube. They were basically letting her stave.
How does the hospitals decision trump a family member. They had to go to court to get permission to move her to a new facility where the received the feeding tube.
As for my thoughts on their decision. I have no opinion on it.
It really is something that you don't know till you're in it.
The closest I ever came to something like this was when my STBX suffered a severe brain injury. We didn't know what to expect the 1st few days, weeks. I wasn't his wife at the time, only his fiancé and everyone was asking me what I would do. It's something I don't wish on anyone and something you can't decide on till you're in the situation.
I believe she will be going to New Beginnings Community Center. Or she is working with the founder. I know Allyson and one of the other women that run it. We would go to support groups with them before they decided to do more and open up a facility for brain injured patients. I have seen some amazing recoveries through the years. Including Allyson's father.
According to one dr:
California defines a loss of brain activity as legal death, but both Jahi’s family and Dr. Paul Byrne, who examined Jahi while she was at Children’s, said that despite the hospital’s insistence that Jahi was “brain dead,” her heart was beating on its own, her organs were functioning and she was responding with movements to family members.
Link
This is such a personal decision and should be left as such. I would HATE to be told my decision doesn't matter. Can you imagine having all hope taken from you?
From a legal standpoint I wonder if the Dr's "saying" she's braindead and wanted her to just pass on, is less of a liabilty and lawsuit than if she was to actually pull through and live .....
This is VERY intruiging and I don't wish what these parents are going through on anyone.
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| Posted 1/10/14 3:55 PM |
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JAPH23
LIF Adolescent
Member since 10/13 769 total posts
Name:
:)
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
The whole story is just so sad.
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| Posted 1/10/14 3:57 PM |
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MsSissy
xoxoxo
Member since 3/07 39159 total posts
Name:
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
Posted by adeline27
the mother says the child responds to her voice and touch is that possible being brain dead? Is it just nerves twitching? It is very very sad.
This would happen with my husband. And it gives you all kinds of hope. They would tell us, it's nerves. But if the nerves were working doesn't that mean the brain is too? I could be completely wrong. But when you're sitting bed side for days on end. You look for any sign of hope.
But at the same time they wouldn't tell us ANYTHING. Wait. We have to wait and see. Time. We need more time to tell.
It's a frustrating injury. They wouldn't say anything to give us any kind of hope. I'm sure because they were afraid of being sued.
Posted by LIVINMYDREAM
From a legal standpoint I wonder if the Dr's "saying" she's braindead and wanted her to just pass on, is less of a liabilty and lawsuit than if she was to actually pull through and live .....
This is VERY intruiging and I don't wish what these parents are going through on anyone.
To be honest. This is what I thought from the beginning.
It's a very frustrating injury. No 2 are the same.
And if I were this girls parents. I wouldn't trust anyone at that hospital or anyone who was affiliated with it.
Message edited 1/10/2014 4:00:47 PM.
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| Posted 1/10/14 3:58 PM |
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jessnbrian
Only God knows His plan for us
Member since 4/13 7238 total posts
Name:
Jessica
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Thoughts on the
If the parents chose for the child to be kept on life support then they need to be the ones to pay for it. It costs TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS PER DAY to keep someone on life support, and unfortunately, a hospital has limited space (beds), limited supplies (machines: ventilators, etc), limited staff, and limited resources. If the parents want to keep the child on life support, absolutely it is their decision, but they need to find the resources to keep her "alive" - perhaps in a hospital bed in THEIR house with machines they purchased specific for her. I, personally, agree that it is a personal decision, one that I cannot possibly imagine making at this juncture, but I *think* I know what I would want to do... however a hospital cannot be expected to foot the bill for an indeterminate amount of time.
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| Posted 1/10/14 4:00 PM |
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MsSissy
xoxoxo
Member since 3/07 39159 total posts
Name:
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
Posted by jessnbrian
If the parents chose for the child to be kept on life support then they need to be the ones to pay for it. It costs TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS PER DAY to keep someone on life support, and unfortunately, a hospital has limited space (beds), limited supplies (machines: ventilators, etc), limited staff, and limited resources. If the parents want to keep the child on life support, absolutely it is their decision, but they need to find the resources to keep her "alive" - perhaps in a hospital bed in THEIR house with machines they purchased specific for her. I, personally, agree that it is a personal decision, one that I cannot possibly imagine making at this juncture, but I *think* I know what I would want to do... however a hospital cannot be expected to foot the bill for an indeterminate amount of time.
May you never find yourself in this situation.
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| Posted 1/10/14 4:04 PM |
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jessnbrian
Only God knows His plan for us
Member since 4/13 7238 total posts
Name:
Jessica
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
Posted by MsSissy
Posted by jessnbrian
If the parents chose for the child to be kept on life support then they need to be the ones to pay for it. It costs TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS PER DAY to keep someone on life support, and unfortunately, a hospital has limited space (beds), limited supplies (machines: ventilators, etc), limited staff, and limited resources. If the parents want to keep the child on life support, absolutely it is their decision, but they need to find the resources to keep her "alive" - perhaps in a hospital bed in THEIR house with machines they purchased specific for her. I, personally, agree that it is a personal decision, one that I cannot possibly imagine making at this juncture, but I *think* I know what I would want to do... however a hospital cannot be expected to foot the bill for an indeterminate amount of time.
May you never find yourself in this situation.
That's what I pray every day of my life! I've had conversations with each of my family members from my grandparents on down, I've had them write up living wills as well as designate proxies so that everyone knows what their wishes are. DH and I are well aware of what we would do for each other. We don't have children yet (despite our trying), but I have thought of this many times because I'm in the industry I'm in and have seen it in so many levels. It's something you never expect but we should all be prepared for.
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| Posted 1/10/14 4:07 PM |
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Kidsaplenty
Sister love
Member since 2/06 5971 total posts
Name:
Stephanie
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
She is completely brain dead. Reports say there has been no blood flow to the brain in weeks. She is by any definition dead-and her mother is in denial. It's time to let her pass peacefully, not being kept alive by artificial means and just prolonging the inevitable.
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| Posted 1/10/14 4:08 PM |
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Paramount
Sweet!
Member since 7/12 4287 total posts
Name:
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
Posted by MsSissy
What is really scary to me. Is how the hospital refused to give her a feeding tube. They were basically letting her stave.
How does the hospitals decision trump a family member. They had to go to court to get permission to move her to a new facility where the received the feeding tube.
The hospital said it does not do procedures on dead patients.
There is no dispute, MEDICALLY, that the child is 100% dead. She is dead. Weather the family want to pray the dead away, or another hospital is "like minded" to the family, she is dead.
So the hospital said its unethical to do procedures (like a feeding tube, or trach) on a dead person. That's how the hospital can "override" the family.
And as far as the reason this happened. She came out of surgery and started bleeding, which caused everything to happen.
Sadly, the family is so stupid that they are going to loose any medical evidence from the little girls body. You see, she is being kept artificially alive. The body will try to heal itself (the physical wounds). Thus, in "healing" the body is going to cover up the reason she died. The more healing, the less they will find during an autopsy.
And finally, who is going to pay for this dead body to be on life support? Lets just say she is In California. Will her insurance pay? Will the family be billed? Will the hospital "eat" the cost? The hospital (more likely than not) is going to bill someone. If the family cant pay the hospital will go to the state. The facility she is in now? You BET they wanted her. Do you have any idea how much money they are going to make by billing Medicaid for her treatment for the next, what few months? This kid is worth money to them, nothing more.
I feel mostly for this child who is not being allowed to die.
Me thinks it will be $500k plus, plus plus.
ETA: For the record the above is my opinion. I have no proof that an autopsy would NOT show something. I have no proof the hospital will bill Medicaid.
But she IS brain dead with no change of recovery.
Message edited 1/10/2014 4:50:05 PM.
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| Posted 1/10/14 4:23 PM |
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2BadSoSad
LIF Adult
Member since 8/12 6791 total posts
Name:
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
How is the heart and organs working if she is brain-dead? With the exception of the short bit the heart may continue to beat, if off life support, wouldnt her organs cease function too?
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| Posted 1/10/14 4:24 PM |
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Paramount
Sweet!
Member since 7/12 4287 total posts
Name:
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
Posted by 2BadSoSad
How is the heart and organs working if she is brain-dead? With the exception of the short bit the heart may continue to beat, if off life support, wouldnt her organs cease function too?
Yes. All would cease if not for the artificial means that are keeping her alive.
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| Posted 1/10/14 4:25 PM |
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
If a private facility agreed to take her, perhaps they have donors or some other charities that may help to offset the cost of her care? Is that possible?
ETA, I'm sure the family is going to make big bucks from the lawsuit..so hopefully they will be able to cover costs as well?
Message edited 1/10/2014 4:34:34 PM.
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| Posted 1/10/14 4:32 PM |
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
I have mixed opinions about it. I feel like I need more info and not just what the media is/isn't saying.
Also, with that said, since I work in the field I do have some experience with New Beginnings.
They are a good organization, however, they are also a survivor-run organization.
This view sometimes clouds reality in my professional opinion.
I've had someone who works there say some not so appropriate things when I felt I could not safely service a case or provide what they were looking for when they were trying to advocate for certain brain injured individuals to obtain services that were not appropriate. With that said, I get that it's coming from a place of good so I didn't take it personally.
I am very much interested to see how this story plays out.
I held a current events group the other day with some of my clients who have TBI and I have never seen them get so passionate about a subject in a long time. It was actually pretty exciting to watch. Many of them were told they weren't gonna live either.
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| Posted 1/10/14 4:36 PM |
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LIVINMYDREAM
LIF Adolescent
Member since 12/07 833 total posts
Name:
Erin
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
Posted by Paramount
Posted by MsSissy
What is really scary to me. Is how the hospital refused to give her a feeding tube. They were basically letting her stave.
How does the hospitals decision trump a family member. They had to go to court to get permission to move her to a new facility where the received the feeding tube.
The hospital said it does not do procedures on dead patients.
There is no dispute, MEDICALLY, that the child is 100% dead. She is dead. Weather the family want to pray the dead away, or another hospital is "like minded" to the family, she is dead.
So the hospital said its unethical to do procedures (like a feeding tube, or trach) on a dead person. That's how the hospital can "override" the family.
And as far as the reason this happened. She came out of surgery and started bleeding, which caused everything to happen.
Sadly, the family is so stupid that they are going to loose any medical evidence from the little girls body. You see, she is being kept artificially alive. The body will try to heal itself (the physical wounds). Thus, in "healing" the body is going to cover up the reason she died. The more healing, the less they will find during an autopsy.
And finally, who is going to pay for this dead body to be on life support? Lets just say she is In California. Will her insurance pay? Will the family be billed? Will the hospital "eat" the cost? The hospital (more likely than not) is going to bill someone. If the family cant pay the hospital will go to the state. The facility she is in now? You BET they wanted her. Do you have any idea how much money they are going to make by billing Medicaid for her treatment for the next, what few months? This kid is worth money to them, nothing more.
I feel mostly for this child who is not being allowed to die.
Me thinks it will be $500k plus, plus plus.
I think that if this is the case than this whole thing is even more disgusting than I originally thought...
So on one hand you have the medical professionals in California that were pretty much just trying to cover up any wrong doing on their part.
And now you have a medical facility in New York who really doesn't care about the patient at all, but making money off of the state, which in turn We will al pay for ! UGGHHHHHHHH sometimes I just can't wrap my head around the medical field .. at all 
Message edited 1/10/2014 4:43:32 PM.
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| Posted 1/10/14 4:41 PM |
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jessnbrian
Only God knows His plan for us
Member since 4/13 7238 total posts
Name:
Jessica
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Re: Thoughts on the "Brain Dead " girl from Cali.....
Posted by MorningCuppaCoffee
I have mixed opinions about it. I feel like I need more info and not just what the media is/isn't saying.
Also, with that said, since I work in the field I do have some experience with New Beginnings.
They are a good organization, however, they are also a survivor-run organization.
This view sometimes clouds reality in my professional opinion.
I've had someone who works there say some not so appropriate things when I felt I could not safely service a case or provide what they were looking for when they were trying to advocate for certain brain injured individuals to obtain services that were not appropriate. With that said, I get that it's coming from a place of good so I didn't take it personally.
I am very much interested to see how this story plays out.
I held a current events group the other day with some of my clients who have TBI and I have never seen them get so passionate about a subject in a long time. It was actually pretty exciting to watch. Many of them were told they weren't gonna live either.
Do you work much with HBOT? I worked at a wound care clinic that had a free-standing multiperson HBOT chamber a few years back. It was so amazing to see the changes that were made with the therapy in the TBI patients.... none were considered brain DEAD, a lot of drowning victims.
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| Posted 1/10/14 4:42 PM |
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