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Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

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Mommy2Boys
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by Erica

The difference with Bloomberg is he is pitting people against each other politically.





Ding! Ding! Ding! This is the one thing Bloomberg does well...he knows how to manipulate.

Message edited 2/22/2011 10:07:20 AM.

Posted 2/22/11 10:06 AM
 
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by Mommy2Boys

Posted by Erica

The difference with Bloomberg is he is pitting people against each other politically.





Ding! Ding! Ding! This is the one thing Bloomberg does well...he knows how to manipulate.



regardless, the point still remains, that we are broke.

if it matters who delivers the message, we can have Shirley Temple or Mother Theresa or Puff the Magic Dragon come on tv and say it. Chat Icon

nothing changes the fact that we DON'T have money, and things MUST change.

at the end of the day, giving to one takes away from another. it is outlandish to me that people are worried about their EXTRA $$ in their pensions for a future that our very demands are making more uncertain. Chat Icon

Posted 2/22/11 10:26 AM
 

JennasMom
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Bloomberg has put a nice spin on this, when he says, ""We have to make a decision: Do we want to send out Christmas bonuses or have more teachers?" Bloomberg said."

1. The FDNY and NYPD DO NOT get Christmans bonuss, the time the VSF for retirees are distributed may coincide with November/December but are no means bonuses. It is money that the members have actively paid into, so essentially they are getting their OWN money back. The city reaped a $4 billion economic windfall after the unions allowed it to invest their members' pensions in the volatile stock market in 1968 that was the condition for handing members supplemental $12,000 pension payouts.


2. As a wife of a former Air Force Sgt and Current LT in the FDNY it pains me that the public thinks both the FDNY and NYPD are money hungry, and FTR when you see FDNY guys shopping at your local grocery store YOU the taxpayers are not buying their food, they spllit that bill amongst however many men are working that shift and yes if a run comes in they leave that food and run to help whoever is in
need!!

Posted 2/22/11 10:39 AM
 

WNA01
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by emilylives

Posted by SlurpeeDad

As I said in an earlier post, I don't think anyone should begrudge people for making money, we should all be able to make as much money as humanly possible.



I'm going to respectfully, but strongly, disagree with this. We're just no longer at a point where it's okay for some people to be making the amounts of money they're making. There is a limit. People making millions, hundreds of millions, and billions of dollars a year, and putting it in the bank to rot because there's no chance they could ever spend it all...to me, that's not okay when people around the world are struggling to survive. Call me a socialist, or a commie, but to me this is totally unjust.



this i completly disagree with. Sorry but its no ones buisness what a person does with their money- if they make it rot, spend it on friviouls things, invest it, or give it away.

If u sacrificed for your money, put blood and sweat into earning it WHY should u be forced to share it with the rest of the world - its urs u do what u want to do with it.


Posted 2/22/11 10:45 AM
 

SlurpeeDad
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by emilylives

Posted by SlurpeeDad

As I said in an earlier post, I don't think anyone should begrudge people for making money, we should all be able to make as much money as humanly possible.



I'm going to respectfully, but strongly, disagree with this. We're just no longer at a point where it's okay for some people to be making the amounts of money they're making. There is a limit. People making millions, hundreds of millions, and billions of dollars a year, and putting it in the bank to rot because there's no chance they could ever spend it all...to me, that's not okay when people around the world are struggling to survive. Call me a socialist, or a commie, but to me this is totally unjust.



I live in America, where there should be no limit on what I can make. If I had the chance to make a million dollars a year, why should that not be allowed? There is a man that is a professional athlete that at one point made $100M a year. He has charities and learning centers in various parts of the country to help inner city kids have a an opportunity to learn in a better environment. Without him making that much money, these places wouldn't exist. I would never begrudge you if you make that much money, we shouldn't do it to them either. If the economy didn't allow for it, they would not make it.

Posted 2/22/11 10:47 AM
 

MissRadiant
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Irishlass- I agree with everything you said. Unless you are in the position where a loved one has one of these jobs- you can not understand what it is like.

When my brother first started working as a PO, he was in one of the worst precints in the city. There was one NYE where he called us to wish us happy new years, and we were these really loud sounds. We asked him were he was and he said under a lightpole. The "outstanding citizens" of that neighborhood bring in the new year by shooting guns into the air. Now when everyone else is indoors to protect themselves, the men and women that go OUT towards the danger to protect us should get nothing? The amount of times, were I have gone to my brother's house bc he has not come home, and my SIL, my parents and myself are worried sick that something happened to him are plenty. Any and everyone that has a PO in their families truly understand what it is like to live in fear.

Yes we can all say that every job has risks, but there are jobs that the risks are higher.

Posted 2/22/11 10:47 AM
 

MrsProfessor
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by JennasMom

Bloomberg has put a nice spin on this, when he says, ""We have to make a decision: Do we want to send out Christmas bonuses or have more teachers?" Bloomberg said."




It's even more disgusting to me that he's involving the FD and PD because he WANTS to lay off teachers. He brought in Cathie Black because she's such a great manager- but I'm not seeing either of them try to reconfigure things to save jobs. We took a freeze last year and most of my work friends agree that we'd concede more to avoid layoffs. And yet Bloomberg goes and throws out 21,000 layoffs at one point- a quarter of the teaching force. He wants to stir people up against public employees.

It would have been nice if he'd echoed some of the comments made here- like, "Sorry, but the money's gone," as opposed to vilifying all of us.

And Emilylives- I agree with you 100%. The people who tried to make as much money as possible are among those to blame most for causing this mess in the first place- not the people who belong to public sector unions.

Posted 2/22/11 10:55 AM
 

Ophelia
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by MrsProfessor

It would have been nice if he'd echoed some of the comments made here- like, "Sorry, but the money's gone," as opposed to vilifying all of us.

.



honestly, as a person not invested in this from a financial "this is my (husbands) job standpoint" I think everyone is looking bad.

I am sure they do you all a lot of good but the union leaders make me want to punch them in the face. and it seems like the antagonism between them and Bloomberg is coming out in these speeches.

these situations REALLY make unions look UGLY to ME. but I am not protected by them so I don't expect those that are to agree.

and I am not for one minute insinuating that unions don't do a world of good for their members, but whenever these public negotiations come up, they without fail leave a bad taste in my mouth every.single.time.


I try to look past both the adminstrations rhetoric, and the union's rhetoric when figuring out where I stand b/c they BOTH have a vested interest, and a seemingly mutual dislike of one another.

again, this is just my opinion, as an ADMITTED outsider.

Posted 2/22/11 11:03 AM
 

sometimesmommy
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by Ophelia



regardless, the point still remains, that we are broke.

if it matters who delivers the message, we can have Shirley Temple or Mother Theresa or Puff the Magic Dragon come on tv and say it. Chat Icon

nothing changes the fact that we DON'T have money, and things MUST change.

at the end of the day, giving to one takes away from another. it is outlandish to me that people are worried about their EXTRA $$ in their pensions for a future that our very demands are making more uncertain. Chat Icon

Are you in my head. I see the future as this-people are going to have a letter or whatever saying they are entitled to X but get an IOU.

Posted 2/22/11 11:15 AM
 

ali120206
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by Ophelia

at the end of the day, giving to one takes away from another. it is outlandish to me that people are worried about their EXTRA $$ in their pensions for a future that our very demands are making more uncertain. Chat Icon



It's not extra money though - it's their money - as Jennasmom said, the city took their pensions and invested it - making $4bn in the process.

Posted 2/22/11 1:08 PM
 

Ophelia
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remember, when Gulliver traveled....

Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by ali120206

Posted by Ophelia

at the end of the day, giving to one takes away from another. it is outlandish to me that people are worried about their EXTRA $$ in their pensions for a future that our very demands are making more uncertain. Chat Icon



It's not extra money though - it's their money - as Jennasmom said, the city took their pensions and invested it - making $4bn in the process.




I am speaking about pension padding specifically.

the whole chrstimas bonus thing is a bit uncertain to me. I don't know enough about it to have an opinion.

Posted 2/22/11 1:20 PM
 

Pumpkin1
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by ali120206

Posted by Ophelia

at the end of the day, giving to one takes away from another. it is outlandish to me that people are worried about their EXTRA $$ in their pensions for a future that our very demands are making more uncertain. Chat Icon



It's not extra money though - it's their money - as Jennasmom said, the city took their pensions and invested it - making $4bn in the process.




I'm a little confused here. The city made $4B more than 40 years ago and that justifies continuing this retiree payment indefinitely? It sounds like there was a sharing of the wealth. Unfortunately, that wealth is no longer there and I can't see the justification for continuing it.

Message edited 2/22/2011 1:25:12 PM.

Posted 2/22/11 1:24 PM
 

sometimesmommy
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

This is a good article and there's countless others including Cuomo speaking specificalling on padding. google is your friendChat Icon

Pension Padding

Posted 2/22/11 1:26 PM
 

Mommy2Boys
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by Pumpkin1

Posted by ali120206

Posted by Ophelia

at the end of the day, giving to one takes away from another. it is outlandish to me that people are worried about their EXTRA $$ in their pensions for a future that our very demands are making more uncertain. Chat Icon



It's not extra money though - it's their money - as Jennasmom said, the city took their pensions and invested it - making $4bn in the process.




I'm a little confused here. The city made $4B more than 40 years ago and that justifies continuing this retiree payment indefinitely? It sounds like there was a sharing of the wealth. Unfortunately, that wealth is no longer there and I can't see the justification for continuing it.




I am copying and pasting this from my post on page 1 regarding the "christmas bonus" Bloomberg talks about for retired cops.

The ironic thing that NO ONE knows about is that $12k variable supplement retired police and fireman get is because decades ago the city borrowed $110M from the NYPD and FDNY unions because they were broke. The city invested that money and in return instead of repayment they negotiated a definded pension benefit. Basically that money is the city paying back a loan they borrowed YEARS ago. But their trying to get out of that too

Posted 2/22/11 1:28 PM
 

Mommy2Boys
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

And this was from another post of IrishLass explaining again.


May 1970: Mayor Lindsay approves of the Collective Bargaining Agreement (“CBA”) between the City and Police/Fire Unions to create the Variable Supplement Fund (“VSF”) in exchange for permission to invest Pension Fund assets in the stock market.

May 1988: Mayor Koch approves of the CBA between the City and the Patrolmens Benevolent Association to transfer the VSF into a “defined benefit” in exchange for a $75 million payment and other “value” that includes agreement to increase the steps to top salary from 3 years to 5 years. Defined payments began at $2,500 and increased to a maximum of $12,000 per year in 2007.

June 1993: Mayor Dinkins approves of the CBA between the City and Police “Superior Officer” unions to transfer the Superior Officer VSF into a “defined benefit” in exchange for $51.75 million payment, and other “value” that includes reduced entry base wage for new promotees, lengthened term of the contract and increased steps to top salary.

September 2002: Mayor Bloomberg approves of “Deferred Retirement Option Plan” legislation under which officers who continued working after marking their 20th year on the job could “bank” the VSF payment for each year they would have received it had they retired NOT BONUS MONEY GIVEN TO WORKERS BUT MONEY GIVEN CITY TO INVEST

Message edited 2/22/2011 1:32:34 PM.

Posted 2/22/11 1:31 PM
 

sometimesmommy
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by Mommy2Boys

And this was from another post of IrishLass explaining again.


May 1970: Mayor Lindsay approves of the Collective Bargaining Agreement (“CBA”) between the City and Police/Fire Unions to create the Variable Supplement Fund (“VSF”) in exchange for permission to invest Pension Fund assets in the stock market.

May 1988: Mayor Koch approves of the CBA between the City and the Patrolmens Benevolent Association to transfer the VSF into a “defined benefit” in exchange for a $75 million payment and other “value” that includes agreement to increase the steps to top salary from 3 years to 5 years. Defined payments began at $2,500 and increased to a maximum of $12,000 per year in 2007.

June 1993: Mayor Dinkins approves of the CBA between the City and Police “Superior Officer” unions to transfer the Superior Officer VSF into a “defined benefit” in exchange for $51.75 million payment, and other “value” that includes reduced entry base wage for new promotees, lengthened term of the contract and increased steps to top salary.

September 2002: Mayor Bloomberg approves of “Deferred Retirement Option Plan” legislation under which officers who continued working after marking their 20th year on the job could “bank” the VSF payment for each year they would have received it had they retired NOT BONUS MONEY GIVEN TO WORKERS BUT MONEY GIVEN CITY TO INVEST


It clarifies one agreement-thats correct .
But I want to see the Union come up for a reason when they cant give what workers are promised in regards to pension padding ....and retirement years later.

Message edited 2/22/2011 1:37:50 PM.

Posted 2/22/11 1:37 PM
 

Mommy2Boys
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by sometimesmommy

It clarifies one agreement-thats correct .
But I want to see the Union come up for a reason when they cant give what workers are promised in regards to pension padding ....and retirement years later.



There is a lot more wrong with the pension system than pension padding.

Public employees do not pay income tax after retirement. And I asked a few pages ago but noone answers, I also think retired public employees do not have to contribute to medicare/medicaid after retirement while private retirees do.

Public employees only contribute to their retirement for a certain number of years varying by agency. They should have to contribute throughout their entire career.

And medicare/medicaid fraud is costing NY $6B a year...maybe they should put some effort into clearing that up.

Posted 2/22/11 1:43 PM
 

stickydust
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by Mommy2Boys

Posted by Pumpkin1

Posted by ali120206

Posted by Ophelia

at the end of the day, giving to one takes away from another. it is outlandish to me that people are worried about their EXTRA $$ in their pensions for a future that our very demands are making more uncertain. Chat Icon



It's not extra money though - it's their money - as Jennasmom said, the city took their pensions and invested it - making $4bn in the process.




I'm a little confused here. The city made $4B more than 40 years ago and that justifies continuing this retiree payment indefinitely? It sounds like there was a sharing of the wealth. Unfortunately, that wealth is no longer there and I can't see the justification for continuing it.




I am copying and pasting this from my post on page 1 regarding the "christmas bonus" Bloomberg talks about for retired cops.

The ironic thing that NO ONE knows about is that $12k variable supplement retired police and fireman get is because decades ago the city borrowed $110M from the NYPD and FDNY unions because they were broke. The city invested that money and in return instead of repayment they negotiated a definded pension benefit. Basically that money is the city paying back a loan they borrowed YEARS ago. But their trying to get out of that too



I understand - its terrible but if there is NO money left where are they supposed to get this money from? Should they cut essential city services? I understand people feel that its their money and as such they should get it back but if that money no longer exists I am curious as to where people think you should take it out of? You can't just start randonly taxing people or corporations whenever there is a shortfall.

I am really curious as to what people feel the solution is in light of the fact that there is ZERO money. Unfortunately sometimes you sacrifice the few for the benefit of the many.. I am sure many of us have had turns being "the few".

Posted 2/22/11 1:44 PM
 

Ophelia
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remember, when Gulliver traveled....

Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

ok, I've read a bit about this Variable Supplemental and have a few questions if anyone wants to humor me.

first question: is the city currently still investing additional money or was it a one time investment that the dividends are coming in on?

second question: are the payments only going to those who's pension was borrowed from or do they go to anyone who has worn or will wear a uniform?

let me tell you what I am getting from what I've read and you tell me if I am wrong.

Lindsey takes funds and invests them, with all of the risk on the city, but the payments rose and fell with the market.

in the 80's Koch asked to divert the dividends on the investments, in exchange for a fixed payment, which has grown annually to 12k per year. and now Corrections, which was not part of the deal, is also getting the benefit.

I can't really be sure of what I think b/c I am still unclear about some things, but I think that is NO NEW investments have been made with the pensions, then these supplemental payments should be stopped, b/c the loan has no doubt been paid off.

if they are continuing, I think they should go back to getting what the market is bearing, rather than a fixed payment. that just makes NO sense. it's like they are ok'ing a gamble, but don't pay the price. it shouldn't work that way.

I put into a 401k. I don't expect the taxpayers to bear the brunt of any losses I may face when I AGREED to have my money invested. I'm sorry. I just can't get down with that. Chat Icon

Posted 2/22/11 1:47 PM
 

Ophelia
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remember, when Gulliver traveled....

Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by Mommy2Boys

Posted by sometimesmommy

And medicare/medicaid fraud is costing NY $6B a year...maybe they should put some effort into clearing that up.



see, I have addressed this issue. Cuomo, on the state level has been an awesome go getter in terms of fraud. up until his last days as State AG he was bringing in record settlements and prosectuions.

and on the federal level, the Obama administration has been a HUGE advocate of fraud investigations, especially on the civil side, giving us new tools to pursue civil damages even if there was no criminality.

there are press releases literally every day about this stuff. people just don't pay attention.

Posted 2/22/11 1:49 PM
 

ali120206
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by Ophelia

Posted by ali120206

Posted by Ophelia

at the end of the day, giving to one takes away from another. it is outlandish to me that people are worried about their EXTRA $$ in their pensions for a future that our very demands are making more uncertain. Chat Icon



It's not extra money though - it's their money - as Jennasmom said, the city took their pensions and invested it - making $4bn in the process.




I am speaking about pension padding specifically.

the whole chrstimas bonus thing is a bit uncertain to me. I don't know enough about it to have an opinion.



Sorry - there was a lot of back and forth I was confused.

I agree there needs to be some changes made to the way overall pensions are calculated (and I'm directly affected by this).

Posted 2/22/11 1:50 PM
 

Ophelia
she's baaccckkkk ;)

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remember, when Gulliver traveled....

Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?


so, when was the last time the unions gave the city money to invest?

Message edited 2/22/2011 1:53:05 PM.

Posted 2/22/11 1:52 PM
 

sometimesmommy
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Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by Mommy2Boys

Posted by sometimesmommy

It clarifies one agreement-thats correct .
But I want to see the Union come up for a reason when they cant give what workers are promised in regards to pension padding ....and retirement years later.



There is a lot more wrong with the pension system than pension padding.

Public employees do not pay income tax after retirement. And I asked a few pages ago but noone answers, I also think retired public employees do not have to contribute to medicare/medicaid after retirement while private retirees do.

Public employees only contribute to their retirement for a certain number of years varying by agency. They should have to contribute throughout their entire career.

And medicare/medicaid fraud is costing NY $6B a year...maybe they should put some effort into clearing that up.


Its a big mess..its similar to MTA employees riding for free, having a deficit but wanting to cut out student benefits instead of paying something--even half fair. Its selfish.

Posted 2/22/11 1:55 PM
 

SlurpeeDad
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SlurpeeDad

Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by sometimesmommy

This is a good article and there's countless others including Cuomo speaking specificalling on padding. google is your friendChat Icon

Pension Padding



That was eye opening and an excellent read.

Posted 2/22/11 1:58 PM
 

Mommy2Boys
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C

Re: Since bashing teachers went on for 12 pages, can we discuss how Bloomberg is trying to $crew the NYPD, FDNY, etc.?

Posted by Ophelia

ok, I've read a bit about this Variable Supplemental and have a few questions if anyone wants to humor me.

first question: is the city currently still investing additional money or was it a one time investment that the dividends are coming in on?

second question: are the payments only going to those who's pension was borrowed from or do they go to anyone who has worn or will wear a uniform?

let me tell you what I am getting from what I've read and you tell me if I am wrong.

Lindsey takes funds and invests them, with all of the risk on the city, but the payments rose and fell with the market.

in the 80's Koch asked to divert the dividends on the investments, in exchange for a fixed payment, which has grown annually to 12k per year. and now Corrections, which was not part of the deal, is also getting the benefit.

I can't really be sure of what I think b/c I am still unclear about some things, but I think that is NO NEW investments have been made with the pensions, then these supplemental payments should be stopped, b/c the loan has no doubt been paid off.

if they are continuing, I think they should go back to getting what the market is bearing, rather than a fixed payment. that just makes NO sense. it's like they are ok'ing a gamble, but don't pay the price. it shouldn't work that way.

I put into a 401k. I don't expect the taxpayers to bear the brunt of any losses I may face when I AGREED to have my money invested. I'm sorry. I just can't get down with that. Chat Icon




I am all for reform but honestly, why the focus is always on NYC employees (teachers, NYPD, FDNY, Corrections) is beyond me! They work in the $hittiest areas under some of the crappiest conditions with NO support from the public or mayor.

How much more can they give???? NYPD new recruits only get 10 vacation days until they hit 5 years. They dont get to include overtime in their pensions. They now have to work 25 years as opposed to 20 (meanwhile the average life expectancy of a cop after retirement is 7 years). They dont get to strike to "fight" for what they want like other unions do.

I can't wait for DH to retire in 9 years! The NYPD is going to be such a $hit show with the crap they are hiring now. You get what you pay for and that's why now they are taking people on the job who have misdemeanors on their records.

The city is too safe right now so they are severely under appreciated. After 9/11 everyone thought they were rockstars. Now, the public, the mayor, the police commission are just $hitting all over them. Bloomberg knows what he's doing. Their contract are up next year. He is going to set it up and claim poverty so they dont have to give any raises.

I believe cuts need to be made but ACROSS the board. Stop taking away more from city employees and blaming everything on them! A gym teacher on LI who plays volleyball all day makes more money in their base salary than my husband does who puts on a bullet proof vest to go to work. Tell me where the rationale is with that???? Chat Icon Chat Icon Chat Icon Chat Icon Chat Icon Chat Icon

Message edited 2/22/2011 2:12:27 PM.

Posted 2/22/11 2:07 PM
 
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